Building a Better Buying Experience With AI and 1mind

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[00:00:29] What if your company is measuring everything about AI, except whether it is actually improving the business? Everything from license counts, prompt values and co-pilot usage. All these metrics can look impressive. But let's be honest, they do not tell us whether customers are buying, sellers are making better decisions or revenue is moving the right way.

[00:00:55] And my guest today is VP of Marketing at 1mind and also host of the GTM AI podcast. You might know him online, known as Coach K because a startup once employed far too many people called John. But he will explain today why companies need a business strategy that use AI rather than a separate AI strategy constantly searching for purpose.

[00:01:20] So today we'll discuss his optimize, amplify or reinvent model. The changing behavior of buyers who very often now research before even visiting a website. So how can AI support that buying journey without removing human relationships?

[00:01:39] So if your organization has brought the tools but wondering where the results went, today's conversation should give you some useful questions that you can ask and turn this around. But enough from me. Let me introduce you to Coach K right now. So thank you for joining me today on the show. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do? Oh goodness. Well, first just want to say thank you for having me and thank you for everyone listening.

[00:02:09] It means a lot to even have you take the time. So I just want to say I'm very appreciative and grateful. My name is Jonathan Carford. Some people call me Coach K. Long story short, I was in a startup once where there's literally 40 people in a small room as we're growing the team. Half of us were named John. And because of the nature of everyone responding to the name John, we all got nicknames. And because I was a sales coach at the time and because no one could ever say my last name, say, hey, you're Coach K. I'm like, okay. And then from there, it just stuck.

[00:02:36] And everywhere I've went, someone has known me as coach and just kind of stuck, which I go with because there's not very many coaches. But there's always a lot of Johns, which is kind of funny. I'm currently the VP of Marketing at OneMind.com. I was the VP of Marketing and Go-To-Market Strategy at Momentum.io that was just recently acquired by Salesforce. And I've been in the go-to-market AI world now for five years. And I also own the GTMAI Academy and the GTMAI podcast, where I've done the podcast now for three years.

[00:03:04] The Academy have had 10,000 plus professionals and leaders go through to learn how to use AI. And I've trained teams and other individuals. I taught at Prine University their AI course. I live, breathe, eat, sleep, sell, market, talk AI all day long, which is kind of fun. So I've been around the block a few times and just am always in a constant state of all because I'm always learning. And it's a lot of fun. And not only that, as soon as this podcast wraps up, you're going straight to Vegas for an AI conference. So you're the perfect person to talk to about this.

[00:03:33] Companies everywhere are investing heavily in AI, but many are possibly incorrectly applying it to existing processes rather than changing how their business operates and approaching with a different mindset, different workflows, different ways of working. So what do you think needs to change in the way that leaders think about AI before they expect meaningful business results and that elusive ROI?

[00:03:58] I have a model that's called OR, which stands for Optimize, Amplify, or Reinvent. And it kind of tells you where someone's at, which to me, which one you use depends on how comfortable you are with blowing things up. Because some companies, to be fair, there may not be in a place where you can blow things up. You have to focus on optimizing. So let me go through the model real fast.

[00:04:21] So there's Optimize, which means you usually are doing 10% to 20%, maybe 30% of optimization of time, which is an amazing increase of time and productivity. Then there's Amplify, which can get more to the 30% or 50%. And then there's Reinvent, which that's where you get the 100% to 2%, 3%, 4%, 5% type of impact when you do things beyond just doing what you did before. And I find that that spectrum sits on two sides. So you have one side, which is doing things where you did things before, better, faster, easier, cheaper.

[00:04:49] But it's the same old process, same old stuff. It's just doing it with AI. And on the right side, we come to Reinvent is when you're thinking about how can we do this better or in a different way using first principle thinking. So that spectrum kind of depends on where and how the company thinks about what they want to do inside the company. And again, how much they want to blow things up or not. And there's an old mantra in IT, which is you can only improve what you measure.

[00:05:14] And I suspect we've both seen companies actually measuring AI adoption through licenses, usage and prompt values. But I mean, from your vantage point here, what should leaders be measuring instead if they want to understand whether AI is actually improving decisions, customer outcomes or even revenue? What should they be measuring? I've said this before many times. I'm saying one more time. I don't think there should be an AI strategy. I think there should be a business strategy that uses AI.

[00:05:40] So if you are able to, like when I go into people and I used to teach, I used to say used to, I teach this whole time. So I just barely got done with one is what I should say. I barely got done with a five-week course with CROs and living leaders and go-to-market teams. And it's probably about, you know, 100 people in there. And we went over a model where I talk about exactly this, where a lot of people come to me and they say, hey, coach, what AI tech should I buy? And I'm like, that's a great question. It's the wrong time to ask it.

[00:06:07] Because what you should be asking at first, at the very, very first is saying, what are the strategic business outcomes we're trying to do here? Whether it's adding a pipeline or a better quota or a win ratio or reducing churn or whatever the case that you're trying to go for. And then work backwards from there to figure out, okay, if you have your outcome, then let's go through and figure out, okay, let's just decide on quota attainment, for example, because you want to have more pipeline. And you want to have more quota.

[00:06:31] If that is the case, then we need to go from the outcome and think about, okay, what is happening instead of co-latainment now that makes it so we can't get there? Like, what is happening? Is it talent? Is it process? Is it whatever? Whatever. A lot of times and half the times when I have people do this, sometimes the answer isn't AI. Sometimes it's like just having a better definition of your ICP, which has nothing to do with AI, by the way.

[00:06:53] But once you figure out what the gap is, the problem is, and then you map out the workflows of what that is, then you can look at AI and say, okay, if it is ICP, we need to figure out what the ICP is. And then we need the technology to help us identify by signals or by whatever you want to do, you, your architecture of who the ICP is, where they're at, how to talk to them, and then how do we execute and activate our team to make sure that we're actually approaching the people who are in market who would resonate with us more than anybody else versus just blasting the universe and hoping that things work.

[00:07:22] So, I mean, that's just a classic example. That's just my opinion on where people should be on. And at OneMine, you're focused on using AI to move customers through the buying journey rather than simply automating individual sales tasks. So I'm curious, what does that experience look like and where can AI genuinely make buying easier or more enjoyable for us as consumers? It's a good question. And if anyone wants to have an experience with this, I just say go to OneMine.com and talk to our own superhuman named Memdi.

[00:07:52] And you can kind of experience it for yourself. So that's the best way to see is there. But the difference, though, is asking the question, kind of going back to the OR concept of like optimize versus reinvention, is thinking about a lot of technology out there is trying to amplify the human. And the challenge with that, and I'm not a person saying we should get rid of humans. What I am saying is we should get rid of the old way of thinking because there's things that humans can do that AI cannot and I don't think ever will be able to do. It's because we're unique as an entity in the universe.

[00:08:22] But there are things that we do currently that I think AI can do. So let me give you an example. I think that a lot of times, like if you and I went back to the 1940s or whatever the time frame was, and we went and talked to a telephone operator and we showed them a cell phone and we said, you don't have to do this anymore. There's this thing called a cell phone. It has all your contacts in it. And you can take pictures and you watch YouTube and order food. They're like, what the crap are you talking about? You know, they're like, it would be a whole new thing.

[00:08:46] So us trying to imagine where we're going to go with AI is like us trying to describe to a telephone operator what a cell phone is. It's the same thing. So that means that we have to be open to saying, okay, what we're doing now that we're doing with humans, what if that could be done in a different way? Now, the second part of this is asking the question, which is, is the experience we're going through right now for buyers the best experience ever? Is it delightful? And if it's not, how can we use AI in such a way that it becomes a better experience?

[00:09:16] The groundwork is think about some of the places where you need some help, but you don't ever get it. The first one is the website. Forced to put out a site said that 94%, which pretty much means everybody does AI search before they do, they go to any website, which means you have the traffic come down, but the quality goes up. And the, the, the status of that person is not in awareness stage, but in research stage.

[00:09:39] So the difference between those two is drastic because you put different content and different flows, different everything for a research buyer versus awareness buyer. And the, most people are still like, they're trying to optimize the entire website for awareness. I'm like, you got to optimize for research because that's where people are at. So the question is, okay, if someone is past where they usually would have been on a website, they finally go to website and they're ready to figure out what in the world you do and why they should talk to you. What experience do you want to have?

[00:10:06] Do you want to give them a definitive chat bot that can answer the basic gist of questions or have some sort of live chat with an SDR? No offense against SDRs. I love SDRs, but they usually are younger kids who don't know about the industry. They don't know about the technology. They can't answer all the questions. It's, it's not a good experience because they're not the best you have. You know, how many companies have the best that they have the experts in the field on the website, 24 seven, ask any question they want. No one has that because you can't staff it. It's not a matter of, we don't, we don't want to have humans here.

[00:10:35] It's a matter of, we can't hire enough people to actually cover what is needed to have happened to make sure that people have the answers on the website, which is why you need an AI that has accuracy, speed and breadth of capabilities that can do things better than anything else can at any time, which again is a tall order. But that's what we do at OneMind. And that's one example of many.

[00:10:55] You take that example of saying, if we had a sales engineer level AI who could show different things, answer any questions, has guard rail, doesn't hallucinate all this stuff and can actually move someone farther into the buying cycle. So instead of like optimizing for meetings booked, what if they optimize for the buyer and say, okay, let's go past meeting book. Let me give you a demo. Let me ask you questions. Let me tell you about the technical diagrams. Let me tell you about la la la, all this other stuff that the buyer needs to have.

[00:11:20] So then when they actually are ready to talk to a human, the AI hands them off instead of at stage zero at meetings booked, they're handing them off at stage four. And that way the human and the buyer can have a better relationship, better conversation, more enriched, and then can move them through the funnel, which is better for the buyer and better for the team, by the way. You have that experience and you map it across the entire customer journey. You have the website, you have the solution engineer, actual experience, which is what we just launched with our ride along sales engineer. You have the in-product guide.

[00:11:49] So you have anybody who can get any onboarding or any direction from a product at any time. And then you have the CSM or the customer success, I should say, where you can scale the CSMs. I don't know any team that doesn't have an overwhelmed CSM team. Like every CSM is working their rear ends off and never has enough time. Like if you could alleviate some of that pressure by using AI, why wouldn't you want to do that to make it both better for the CSM and better for the team? So, or for the buyer.

[00:12:13] So I just think that as long as you're willing to look outside the box and say, can we do this better for the buyer? And the more people are willing to ask that, the better you'll have success. Such a great point, especially about the old way of doing things and building a website for awareness when everybody now is researching before even thinking about a website. And there's also a lot of discussion around AI replacing sales and marketing roles, et cetera.

[00:12:38] But when I was doing a little research on you, I was reading that you see this as more of a human and AI challenge rather than either or decision. So what should humans be responsible for and remain responsible for? And where can AI provide maybe capabilities that people simply cannot deliver at the same kind of speed and scale? How do you see that balance between the two and who handles what? I don't. There's two sides of this.

[00:13:05] So bear with me as I kind of go through this because I genuinely don't know where we're going to go. I wish I could know, but every quarter in AI, something comes up. I'm like, yeah, that blows up my theory. That's totally fine. So please know I'm saying this knowing I don't know, but let me tell you what I think. I've been around this for five years. And the more I'm inside of AI and seeing what it can do, the more that I see that the very native human traits are becoming more and more important.

[00:13:33] Like relationships and how you handle EQ and how can I talk to you as a human being and how do I connect with you without being selfish? Like all these basic Dale Carnegie, how to win friends and influence people type traits. That's the stuff that we need to go back to that I'm finding more successful. Like, for example, with one mind, we are still hiring account executives to go talk to people.

[00:13:54] But the skills and the traits we're looking for are way different than they were before because we don't, not that we don't need them to be technically acumen, but we're looking for more the EQ traits, the relationship and the soft skills and all this kind of stuff. We're looking more for that and strategy versus the ability to demo or answer technical questions. So it's like, it just seems to me that the more we get into this, the more that actual human capabilities are more important.

[00:14:21] The other side of it is, and this is something to be aware of. I don't think our CEO said once and I agree with her. People keep saying that people will only buy from people. And I totally disagree with that because even before AI, people would buy from a PLG motion without a human and has nothing to do with AI. They just bought stuff, right? Yeah. I think people buy specifically in B2B when they can trust.

[00:14:43] So if you have an AI that is more accurate and less hallucinatory than a human and can be better trusted, why wouldn't you want to go down that experience? And why would you hold back a buyer to be able to have that? So it's just understanding that I think we can have more. Let me give an example of that actually, because I've thought of this a lot. In the world of like, let's just say real estate.

[00:15:02] If I have like a Jarvis from Marvel experience, where I have this holographic experience, I could walk into a house that I wanted to buy and the AI could take me through everything I wanted to know and walk me through like, here's what happened. This is what was built. Do we have any floods? Blah, blah, blah. All this other stuff. Would I buy from an AI in that circumstance a million dollar home? Probably. Like, because I'm just trying to figure out, is this house going to be something I want to have?

[00:15:27] Now, is that going to replace what the nuance and the, like the, again, the relationship and that, like, what's it called? The X factor that some real estate agents have. I've had some real estate agents who are just amazing because they get me as a human and they know what I'm being driven for. There's a difference between delivering facts about a home and then actually helping someone see themselves inside a home. That's different. But still, it's like, there are some people who just want to purchase a home and move on. So it's like, different selves of different people.

[00:15:54] So the question is, if you can trust that experience with an AI, would you buy a million dollar home with an AI if it had the ability to do all that stuff? My answer is probably. I never thought I would take an Uber or a Waymo, but I totally did. So I'm like, you know, never say never with stuff. So I just, I think the point is being willing and open to thinking about how am I willing to shift my thinking and what I can do? And how do I really lean into what's unique about me as a human? And again, not fight the AI wave because it's not slowing down anytime soon.

[00:16:23] An agentic GTM is something that sounds compelling too. But for some people listening, giving AI greater responsibility across a live customer journey will introduce risk, make them feel a little nervous. For individual users, I know some people have got AI browsers and et cetera. And as soon as it asks to plug into their email and calendar, they get a little bit nervous.

[00:16:44] So how do you determine which decisions an agent can make autonomously and where human judgment, approval or intervention should always remain? Is this something you wrestle with at all? Yeah, it's a good question because I think it depends on the company. It depends on the individual. Some people, as you all know, are more willing to give AI more power than others. You know, it's kind of a comfort level. It's kind of like the first time you took a Waymo and you have no one driving a car.

[00:17:12] It's a freaky experience because you're like, uh, what's going on here? So it just depends on someone's comfort level or a company's comfort level. That's number one. So I couldn't say carte blanche is what you should do for everyone because it depends on each company. With that being said, though, I think one thing to be aware of is that we have the ability now with AI to, like for us, for example, we have what's called guardrails that we've trained inside of our technology.

[00:17:36] So the AI has, we have a, what's called a 99.5% hallucination rate, which means that we rarely hallucinate. And if we do, it's usually because it's based on a document that a customer forgot they put into the human superhuman. Um, and even if it did do hallucinate, it only happens one time versus a human. The other side is, okay, how much, how many times does a human hallucinate all the time? Yeah.

[00:18:01] So it's like the more you have the ability to, to control the guardrails of an AI, so it doesn't hallucinate. Again, the question is if you had a human who's going to hallucinate half the time versus an AI that hallucinate 0.5% of the time, which one would you want to take? So just the question is just like, depending on the context, what you're trying to deliver, I'd want to make sure I have the most accurate one.

[00:18:24] And there will be many leaders listening that already have large tech stack, CRM platforms, automation tools, and increasingly AI co-pilots. And why are those investments not necessarily translating into better revenue outcomes? How should, and also how should companies maybe better rethink that relationship between their technology and the underlying buying process? Because very often people just keep going out and buying more stuff and thinking, well, why am I not getting value here?

[00:18:53] I think part of this is because they, they buy stuff for the wrong reasons, because they heard someone talk about it. They thought it was cool or whatever. It's easy to think that you can just press the AI button, the easy button. And then all of a sudden you have like half more, half more, you know, 50% more pipeline, whatever. It's easy to think that way. But a lot of the times when someone rolls out AI and they're not getting value, the, the shortcoming is very rarely the AI.

[00:19:20] It's usually the strategy or the actual needs underneath AI. So for example, going back to what I said originally about the outcomes, I had a company that they came to me and said, hey, we bought this outbound AI tool and it's just not working. And I had another company at the time who, so I had two companies, one was using, they're both using the same tool. One came to me and said, this tool sucks, but it doesn't work. The other one said, this works awesome. And I was like, what's the difference between the two?

[00:19:45] And the difference was the one company had very clear ICP definitions beyond just anyone over a thousand people in a company. They had very clear messaging and the resonating of what was actually working on. They took a lot of time to make sure the data was correct. Whereas the other company pretty much just pointed and shot at the, at their random broad definition of ICP.

[00:20:09] And so when I looked at the underlying data and information, I was like, this is why the AI is crappy is because your data is crappy. So you have to be willing to look at what are you feeding the AI? Are you actually giving it what it needs to be successful? Most of the time, it's a, it's a data infrastructure strategy problem. That's getting masked as this AI is not giving me what I need and not enough of the actual tool itself.

[00:20:36] And for any business leader listening who might be thinking that company is doing AI because their employees are using co-pilots and AI tools every day. I'm curious, any questions that you would advise that they should be asking to determine whether that AI is actually changing how their organization sells, how it makes decisions or, or ultimately creates value? Well, there's two sides of it. The one is if you have tools that you're expecting a human to adopt, then then make changes.

[00:21:04] You're going to get a mixed bag of results because obviously anytime you're asking for a human to do anything, it will all depend on how you're motivating or incentivizing that human to do that thing. So the question is, okay, if you want someone to use ChatsPT all the time, do they have the knowledge? Do they have the capability? Do they have the motivation in order to use that tool? And if not, and if you, if they're not using it, then you're not going to get the ROI out of it.

[00:21:28] So the place I usually tell people to look at is saying, how can we use AI in such a way that doesn't require the adoption of human? I'm not saying you shouldn't give your team tools. You absolutely should. However, it, you can only get so much ROI from helping someone write an email faster. Like the actual transformation comes from when you look at the entire org and looking at, okay, where are, again, the outcomes we're looking for and where inside of our organization will make the biggest difference for our outcomes.

[00:21:55] Too many times people think like, hey, when the other part of it is they get AI, they optimize some workflow without attaching it to outcomes. And they're doing things faster and better, but it's not, it's not pointed at an outcome. So they're looking at, okay, we have AI, we have this particular metric that's going faster, but revenue is not going up. I'm like, well, that's the problem because you're supposed to start with revenue. You don't, you don't point something at a problem and say, okay, we hope this makes revenue better. Hope is not a strategy. You got to look at your outcome and say, okay, where are we going to make the biggest bang for the buck? And how do we measure this in a way that would actually tell us if it's working?

[00:22:25] Because to me, if you're not using AI to use or to impact measurable conversion rates across the board, and if you don't see a measurable difference, then it's, then it could sometimes be the tool. And sometimes it's a strategy, but either way, you got to be crystal clear on what you're looking for. Now, the other side of it is, as you start to use AI, like for example, with us, with, with OneMind, you will have metrics that you will start to measure that you didn't know existed before because you never had the capability before. Let's just give an example.

[00:22:53] What's the buyer coverage of a certain AI? Like how much of the buyer's journey can be covered by an AI that we currently have covered by humans? How, how can we change that? And what is the experience we want our buyers to have that makes it positive for them? And as long as you're willing to ask that question, I would say like with buyers that I've seen, we work with tons of companies from massive, large ones, the B2C, the B2B.

[00:23:17] And the more that someone gives the buyer an option of AI, not requirement, but the option of AI, you'd be surprised at how many times people take that path versus talking to a human because they may not be ready to talk to a human because they don't want to do that. They're up at 2 a.m. doing research and want to talk to something and figure out what's going on. So like, it's just being willing to look at and ask questions and to do things differently than before.

[00:23:39] And then if you are doing things the old way, which is nothing wrong with that, by the way, look at your conversion rates because you're lagging stuff like metrics and pipeline and all that kind of stuff takes time. But you should be able to go further into your metrics and say, okay, if we're trying to get quota attainment, the first question is how much selling time does each person have and how are we measuring that now? And how do we know when it's better? Most people can't even tell you right now how much selling time a salesperson has because they're not measuring it. Like you said, in IT, if you can't measure it, you can't approve it.

[00:24:06] You know, so it's like if you think you're going to make better selling time, but you have no idea where it is now, how are you going to know if AI or anything else is going to make a difference with that? So you've got to be willing and able to do the basic groundwork so you can know if AI is going to make an impact. And for many listening, the pace of technological change is breathtaking at the moment, but there's also a chance that it will never move this slow again. And you yourself said at the very beginning of our conversation today, you feel like you're almost in a constant state of awe.

[00:24:32] And with all that in mind, everything you're seeing and experiencing, tech conferences, et cetera, as well, what excites you about the future and where we're heading? What makes you want to jump out of bed in the morning? I love AI because I get bored doing the same thing over and over again. And if anything you can know about AI, you'll never do the same thing over and over again. So you're constantly learning.

[00:24:54] Like when I first started, I started with, long story short, I started with a guy, I was at a company that had bought an AI technology five years ago. And the guy that we built the technology built his own AI model and taught me a lot about AI back in the day. And then he was on some sort of red team or blue team for ChatGBT1, ChatGBT2, ChatGBT3, and kind of walked me through what they were doing. And then when ChatGBT launched in November of 22, I don't know if you remember, but back then it was on an invite only scale.

[00:25:24] And he got me an invite because he was on the team. And I got in there and I had no idea what I was doing. I was like making poems about cats and space and dumb stuff like that, you know? So it's like, I didn't quite understand, but after the first month, I'm like, you could do some really cool stuff with this. And the things I was doing then at ChatGBT 3.5 when it first came out versus what I'm doing now is light years different. Even like what I was doing in February of this year versus now is way different. So it's like, that's what I love about AI is it's constantly moving. Now it is overwhelming.

[00:25:53] Like if anyone listens to this, they're in AI, they're like, man, I'm overwhelmed. Welcome to the party. So am I. So is everybody else. Um, I think the goal is like, if you take the pressure off of, um, this is a hard balance, by the way. It's really easy to think like I'm behind and everyone else is so much farther ahead than I am. And I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I feel that same way all the time because I'm constantly learning and growing.

[00:26:16] So it's like, you have to be in this, again, this continual state of being willing to learn and to blow things up and to shift your thinking, which is not easy for us as humans. But to me, it's like a, it's a skill that I've built over time. Cause it was very uncomfortable at first. Like I was, it was really hard for me to first let go of my first six months of AI of how I learned and how I prompted. I was like, no, I like my way. I'm comfortable this way. I don't want to do anything else. But, but if the more I was willing to shift and change, the better that AI got and the better I got.

[00:26:44] And now I make changes all the time, but I have this like internal, uh, degree of when I know it's time to start shifting. So make sense. And so that, that means me, I am, I require myself to always ask the question. What if I need to do this differently? What if I could do this thing differently with AI? Like I'm always asking what if, and I use my, I let my curious self, cause I think we're naturally curious people as humans.

[00:27:11] I let my curiosity thrive and like creativity thrive, but I also am very critical. So, um, I don't know if that's your question. I'm kind of rambling for a second, but the point is though, is that like, I just think that the goal is. It's being humble to being open to learn new things all the time. And you'll be just fine. And as long as you're willing to improve upon yourself, that's more important than trying to keep up with whoever you think is on YouTube. The best person ever. A hundred percent with you. I cannot echo strongly enough.

[00:27:38] Everything that you've just said that I think you're bang on the money and also you're an incredibly busy guy. So for anyone listening, wanting to learn more about one mind, you've got the podcast also on stage at multiple tech conferences throughout the year. Where, where can people keep up to speed with you as well? Cause you're incredibly busy. Yeah. The, the podcast is mine at GTM AI podcasts. Um, then there's one of my docs. So my technology team, my team, I work for is one of my.com. So I used to go there for me specifically.

[00:28:06] If you go to my LinkedIn, like LinkedIn's my AI dumping ground of random musings. So whatever thoughts I have or technology I see or whatever stuff I post there on LinkedIn. And of course we have the GTM AI podcast, right? Where all we do is we tear apart. We kind of do these show and tells where someone actually shows us behind the scenes and watches through their AI tech, which is a blast to do that. Um, like they work, they take us through like their, their skill architecture or their agent architecture or whatever. It's a lot of fun. And I learn a ton from that. Um, so that's for me.

[00:28:34] And if anyone needs help with stuff, like I'm always willing and ready to talk to people about AI and go to market. Awesome. Well, I will include links to everything that you just mentioned there. And I'll be checking your podcast out as well and keeping a lookout for you at tech conferences myself. So I'll be getting to me on LinkedIn. Do you come on over to us and you're coming out for a bit? Yeah, absolutely. I'm there about what? 15, 20 times a year for tech conferences. I suspect like you, it's going to be Vegas or Orlando. It seems to be those two, but we'll stay.

[00:29:04] It's going to be Vegas. But, uh, thanks for joining me today. Well, Neil, I really appreciate you and thank you for having me on. I think my guest left us with a useful test for every AI investment. Simply start with the business result and work backwards through the problem and workflow. And only then decide whether AI belongs in that answer. Of course, sometimes it will.

[00:29:31] Sometimes the real issue will be weak data, unclear messaging, poor incentives, or just a process that nobody has questioned for years and instead just repeated, well, we've always done it this way. But also buying another tool cannot rescue any of those problems either, no matter how attractive its conference demo looked. And it's also worth highlighting as my guest did today, AI can make human qualities more valuable.

[00:29:58] And by that, I mean if software is handling research, technical answers, and repetitive execution, trust, empathy, curiosity, and judgment become part of the human's real contribution. So, over to you. Where is your company measuring genuine business change? And where is it merely just counting AI activity? Let me know your experiences. TechTalksNetwork.com

[00:30:25] You'll find out more about me, how you can work with me, or meet me at an event near you. But we're out of time today. I'll return again tomorrow with another guest. But thanks for listening as always. Bye for now. Bye for now.