Rethinking Healthcare Security with XIFIN and CrossConnect Engineering

[00:00:00] - [Speaker 0]
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[00:00:41] - [Speaker 0]
When we think about health care, I think we often automatically think about doctors, nurses, patients and treatments. But what we don't always see is the enormous amount of technology working behind the scenes to keep health care organizations operating, moving information securely, processing transactions, and protecting some of the most sensitive data in existence. Well, at Cisco Live, I recently sat down with Kevin Ludwig, associate vice president of information technology at Xiphin, alongside Jeff Cronlage from Cross Connect. And together, we discuss how health care technology is evolving, the growing importance of security and why simplicity might be one of the most valuable outcomes that technology can deliver. And we will also explore today AI, observability, technical debt and what happens when organizations challenge decades old assumptions about how networks and security should work.

[00:01:47] - [Speaker 0]
Systems that were built for a very different era, not the age of AI that we all find ourselves now. But I've probably revealed far too much already, so let me introduce you to them both right now.

[00:02:00] - [Speaker 1]
So thank you for joining me here at Cisco Live. Can you tell me a little about who you

[00:02:05] - [Speaker 0]
are and what you do?

[00:02:07] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. My name is Kevin Ludwig. I'm the AVP of IT at Zyphon. Zyphon is a medical billing platform in regards to pharmacies, laboratories, medical devices. And so we do all the billing in a revenue cycle workflow ecosystem, and we do it as touchless as possible.

[00:02:25] - [Speaker 2]
Zyphon's been around since 1997, and I have been there eleven years this month.

[00:02:29] - [Speaker 1]
Excellent. And I've got not one but two guests joining me on the show floor. Jeff, would you mind telling everyone about you too?

[00:02:35] - [Speaker 3]
Absolutely. Jeff Cronlage, CEO of Cross Connect, and we are Zyphon's Cisco VAR and and partner, and we do all their all their outsourced network support.

[00:02:44] - [Speaker 1]
Well, it's a pleasure to have you both join me today. Now health care is often discussed through the lens of patient care, but behind every health care interaction is a vast amount of technology and data that nobody gets to see or or understand. So can you help people listening to understand your role in the health care ecosystem and why reliable technology is so important to the organizations you support?

[00:03:08] - [Speaker 2]
Mhmm. Yeah. So the the workflow is, you know, the billing comes in through our system, and we validate the billing. We, you know, we make sure that, you know, the providers approve the billing so it moves to the billing cycle. If it doesn't, we have automation that goes so it could be manually looked at and challenged and worked back through the workflow or denied in possible situations.

[00:03:29] - [Speaker 2]
And the the technology is just what it is. I mean, like I I said during the intro, we use a lot of technology and automation, and that's one of the keys to our success and our bread and butter against our competitors is the automation and the workflow. So the employees doing the billing have to touch it as little as possible. And then on top of that, we we have health care, very important data, the PHI, the PII. And so securing that data with Cisco technologies is extremely important from their just hardware that is just doing the transmitting up into Cisco's cloud security now.

[00:04:03] - [Speaker 2]
We also have Cisco Splunk. We have Cisco Umbrella. So we have a lot of Cisco technology to protect us as best we can. I think the conversation with, you know, being vulnerable is not if anymore. It's when.

[00:04:16] - [Speaker 2]
Right? And so we're protecting against the wind, and hopefully, that wind doesn't come.

[00:04:20] - [Speaker 1]
And health care organizations are under increasing pressure from so many different directions, including rising cyber threats, growing regulatory requirements, increasing demands of digital services, etcetera. So what are the biggest tech challenges that your customers are facing today?

[00:04:39] - [Speaker 2]
From the customer side, you know, I I personally don't hear from the customers too much. Yeah. But what comes down to us obviously is, you know, and health care is, you know, being reimbursed less and less. So the margins are getting less and less. So we have to figure out how to do it as, you know, as feasible as possible, keeping security at the forefront, you know, and and those are certainly important things that we've been working on.

[00:05:03] - [Speaker 2]
And so the the hyper smart switch that we're investing in actually has canceled a very important project because we're allowing the switch to do a lot of the firewall duties. And Jeff can get into that in detail when you get to those questions. But, I mean, that's helping us achieve those goals and try to keep our costs down to help our customers just because of the nature of the business.

[00:05:25] - [Speaker 1]
And when I was researching you guys, one of the things that stood out to me was your move away from traditional firewall centric security models. What limitations were you encountering, and why did you decide to take a different approach by embedding your security directly into the network fabric?

[00:05:41] - [Speaker 3]
Absolutely. I I think there's probably potentially a long answer and a short answer there. The long answer is is actually potentially more interesting. So the the story around the smart switch originally when Zyphon first started looking into it was what might this do down the road? The secure there was a vague security description built in there, but it really wasn't well defined yet.

[00:06:03] - [Speaker 3]
And Kevin and his counterpart in security thought through this and went, well, we should probably buy the smart switch, the one that has the the DPUs in it, the future promise of expandability in case it's needed somewhere later without a really well defined what what that might be. And interestingly, the first use case was security, and this case was a the the promise is effectively a 48 port firewall instead of a 48 port switch. Today, everything's done with traditional stateless ACLs. So we have we have ACLs in the at the Nexus level that permit traffic in both directions, but again, no state. The plan was to pull all that traffic for East West up to the firewall, basically reusing the North South firewalls and East West firewall.

[00:06:49] - [Speaker 3]
Obviously, that's not only an architectural change, but it's more than anything is as a cost element to that. The the firewalls they have are are limited to at about 25 gig throughput at this point in time, which would probably get the job done. But the with the with the advent of of smart switching and and having that firewall inside the smart switch, we have 800 gig throughput now, which is almost unlimited seemingly compared to what what limitations we had previously.

[00:07:17] - [Speaker 1]
So yeah. Now AI is rapidly becoming part of health care workflows and applications. Now you're already using AI defense to help secure customer facing applications. What new risks does AI introduce and and how are organizations adapting to that new reality, do you think?

[00:07:35] - [Speaker 2]
Well, I I think that's still very new. You know, of course, the for me and my cybersecurity team, internal is hard, right, because everybody wants to embrace a new technology. Right? Our internal employees wanna use AI. They wanna use agents to invoke into the data.

[00:07:51] - [Speaker 2]
And so we're we are adapting to it slowly because we're worried about the guardrails around it first. And so, you know, we're in it, and we're we're going in as fast as we can, but we're limiting it with the guardrails that we can and the knowledge. AI defense, you mentioned, we did purchase it from Cisco. We only got it about a month and a half ago. We're still working through it.

[00:08:14] - [Speaker 2]
Unfortunately, my cybersecurity team is the one that's handling those calls. As Jeff and I have been head down in the smart switching over the last two months getting ready for here for Cisco live. So we don't have much input to add to that, but it is important to us and we are looking at. We're buying the tools to protect ourselves. The key for us and our customers is the guardrails.

[00:08:33] - [Speaker 2]
We gotta use the technology. Everybody has to, but you gotta do it right too. And you gotta think of your customers first. It's not necessarily about the company.

[00:08:40] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. 100% with you there. It is about getting it right. And there is often a tension between innovation and security, and health care organizations want to move quickly, but they also have a responsibility to protect highly sensitive information. So how do you get that balance right between innovation and security?

[00:08:59] - [Speaker 1]
It must be something you wrestle with a lot.

[00:09:01] - [Speaker 2]
I I think it is. I mean, we have an AI team of engineers, and, of course, they're ready to go. And then like engineers, their job is to make it work. And and then we come behind, and we gotta put all the brakes on and the guardrails and make sure we're securing it, make sure it's rolling out. Yes.

[00:09:17] - [Speaker 2]
We put a little bit of the red tape there to slow it down, but our goal to achieve success and get that out into production is important. So we do our best to work together and keep that flowing, but I think it's always going to be a challenge, and development with AI is just coming faster and faster. So we all have to find the tool sets and the automation to make that work.

[00:09:37] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. And observability is something that's also become increasingly important as environments continue to grow more complex. So how are you finding tools like Splunk and AppDynamics helping your teams to move from simply monitoring systems to actually understanding business impact and customer experience without all that alert fatigue that we keep hearing about.

[00:10:00] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. I mean, I think alert fatigue is challenge and, again, another tale that we're always chasing. We do use Splunk, and we do have AppD. So and we have Splunk ES as well. So we have it on the security side as well as just the logging side.

[00:10:13] - [Speaker 2]
So our our teams are using it as much as possible. We have the dashboards all across that monitor our our files and movement. We we like to call those as a little money bags that are moving the the customer's files and their data back and forth and get it to get out to for as part of the revenue cycle. It is important, but it's a challenge that we face, but we are we're always adapting and and getting to the end as quick as possible.

[00:10:36] - [Speaker 1]
Looking ahead, what do you think health care tech leaders will be focused on over the next few years? Are there any trends that have potential to create a a big positive impact for patients, providers, and health care organizations? I would imagine you guys are are following those trends closely. Is there anything that particularly excites you on where you see it all heading?

[00:10:55] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. I mean, I'd I'd I'm not on that side of it, but I I think ultimately what we're always being driven to is how do we make it working with engineering and having them get the automation cleaner, better, faster. Right? If we can help our customers get cleaner data in, that means it moves to the workflow cleaner and gets all the way to the end. You know, bad data will create stop points.

[00:11:17] - [Speaker 2]
Right? And people have to do manual work. So the goal is to eliminate that. And again, we're using AI to put together all kinds of the different packages and that so it can automate and see what's going on and then reach out to the providers through, you know, the AI and the automation and also again, make it touchless for the customers and allows it to be faster and hopefully more efficient and more accurate.

[00:11:40] - [Speaker 1]
And what brings you both to Cisco Live? Are you is it back to back meetings or presentations? What what are you both doing while you're you're here?

[00:11:48] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. I mean, this time it was the smart switches that Jeff spoke about. We were actually the first customer to purchase them. We purchased them before they even had a skew, and that was in July of last year. And then we they couldn't even give us a ship date because they hadn't even started manufacturing them yet.

[00:12:05] - [Speaker 2]
My understanding is that we are one of four customers that have officially purchased it, and we are the customer that's farthest along in the implementation. I think it's been important and great to work with the Cisco White Glove team. And so us doing all this, they invited us out. Both Jeff and I had different presentations to present here at Cisco Live, and now we're talking with people like you and the media to say that experience. I think it's important to express on the White Glove in something, and I'll let Jeff talk about that because Cisco did cook us up with their VU teams in that and it's helped.

[00:12:38] - [Speaker 1]
I was gonna say, Jeff, as well, what excites you about that Smart Switch being such an early adopter as well?

[00:12:44] - [Speaker 3]
Working with the the White Glove team has really been pretty amazing. So it's it is effectively people who are directing how the product's built. When when it doesn't do something that we that was described to us in the way it might work in our environment, we can they report it back and they go and change it. So we're we're all used to being consumers of technology and it works a certain way when it comes out of the machine and we have to deal with that. But in this case, it works in a way and we describe a better way to do it and we get that.

[00:13:10] - [Speaker 3]
That that's that's been a pretty amazing setup and they'll even respond late at night. I'll hear from them at odd hours, first thing in the morning, over the weekend. So they've really gone over and above to make sure that our experience was really good. So really appreciate Cisco and this this partnership. That said, what excites me about it?

[00:13:28] - [Speaker 3]
It's we're shedding a lot of legacy problems. And one of the questions I get from Cisco a lot is people are a little shaken because when they go into the smart switch, there's a perceived policy chain. There's a very real policy change. You have to go from what your ACLs or firewall rules looked like previously to what is effectively HyperShield policy, which is pretty different. And people are shaking a little bit about, oh, well, it's it's gonna be different.

[00:13:56] - [Speaker 3]
What we're really doing is getting rid of thirty years of tech debt. The way we've been doing things has been driven by a legacy architecture and I can articulate exactly what those pain points are. So a first one if we're talking of coming of of traditional switch ACLs or router ACLs is that they were stateless. So everything that goes through the smart switch is DPU. Everything you redirect into the base of the firewall engine is automatically stateful.

[00:14:22] - [Speaker 3]
There's no concept of statelessness. So by by that, we're able to accomplish several goals. I'll I'll bring in one later. But one of the initial ones is the rules get a lot shorter. We don't need a return path rule anymore.

[00:14:35] - [Speaker 3]
So we have one directional rule and they reply the implied return path is automatically established in the state table. And it's shared across the the VPC pair inside Nexus as well. So we're gaining statefulness. We're also we're shedding the idea of where a policy has to live on an the idea of a policy living on an interface is no longer required. In fact, it's it's actually detrimental.

[00:14:58] - [Speaker 3]
So previously, if you don't have a firewall where you had traffic in traffic out or a a switch where you had traffic in traffic out, you typically apply a rule to the interface, not necessarily to the the device as a whole. And that that's actually it it was it was needed with statelessness. With statefulness, you don't actually need it because you can simply go off the routing table to figure out where an IP lives. So if we know we're going to allow one nine two one six eight ten dot ten to one nine two one six eight ten dot I'm sorry, twenty dot ten, we know we know where those IPs are because we have the routing table inside the device already. So we don't have to say it belongs to this interface or that interface.

[00:15:36] - [Speaker 3]
Because of that, we're now able to put that rule anywhere in the topology. And this this takes up getting getting your head around. It doesn't have to live on an interface anymore. You can simply say it lives in the routing table. So you're putting a rule on a device as opposed to an interface.

[00:15:50] - [Speaker 3]
Moreover, what happens if you wanna put the rule on multiple devices? So it's gonna live on a v let VPC pair is an easy way to think about it. This is gonna live on both VPC pairs. It doesn't matter which way the traffic comes from. It doesn't matter which interface it comes in on.

[00:16:02] - [Speaker 3]
It's gonna continue working. There's more to that story, but I'll I'll pause there and and continue in some of the other ideas. So now we've we've made the policy able to be moved around. What if we got rid of ordering too? Like, ACLs are very complicated because they're order rules.

[00:16:17] - [Speaker 3]
We're coming from top down. We're going to have some kind of permit deny, permit deny kind of sequence. And it's they're both hard to read because you you get into hundreds or thousands of rules trying to figure out what a rule smack in the middle did is not always easy to interpret. We're going completely orderless, unordered on on the DPU. There's some good reasons for that.

[00:16:39] - [Speaker 3]
I'll come back to it. But not only does order being unordered give us that capacity of of being make it easier to read, it also matches human intent better. We don't sit down and have a conversation in ACL. Nobody thinks in in order of rules. They think about I'm going to allow a certain set of systems to talk to another sort of certain set of systems.

[00:16:59] - [Speaker 3]
And when you start thinking about it from that angle, you get a much more natural policy from that matches on paper what you are on on the computer what you were thinking in your head. So with that with that in mind, it's a much more natural policy type and you can't you don't get confusion inside of rules. So if multiple teams work on something simultaneously, you can both add to that policy at the same time. There's no more ordering to deal with. So in effect, it's a deny any rule at the bottom and you're putting a series of permits on top of it that are simply describing one group of IPs to another group of IPs in an object based manner.

[00:17:36] - [Speaker 3]
So this results in a lot of gains. Multiple people can work in the rule sets. You're not it can be fit anywhere in the topology because of the the multiple things I just listed off, so it can be moved around. APIs can add add to it more easily without any restrictions of am I putting this in the right spot in the firewall and not having problems there. The and it all it's simply easy to read.

[00:17:58] - [Speaker 3]
You don't know what shadow rules where one didn't have an effect because a tile one up above was was masking it so on and so forth. So backing up a moment, that takes us from where stateless stateless to stateful and written in such a way that you put anywhere in the topology and in an unordered manner. Now that can sound scary if you have tens of thousands of rules and and it would be a for a lift to get there to be fair. But really what we're doing is shedding problems. Statelessness was a problem.

[00:18:27] - [Speaker 3]
We're now getting state state fullness is what we all wanted. So we're shedding that as a as a legacy idea. Ordered rules are were a legacy idea because we had to that was what the ASIC could support or what the router could support in a less CPU intensive fashion. The GPU is quick. So we can we can simply evaluate the entire rule set in one pass.

[00:18:48] - [Speaker 3]
It wouldn't go as opposed to having to think down in a in ordered list and then match on the first one possible. So we're we're shedding some some tech debt there. And of course, we're also shedding the idea of having it be applied to a single interface. So we can we can simply use it as a a like a mesh policy. So we use it in a distributed fashion anywhere in the environments.

[00:19:08] - [Speaker 3]
So again, customers think, oh my gosh, I have to change the policy. And I'm like, wow, we finally get to change the policy and we get to do this right.

[00:19:17] - [Speaker 1]
Wow. And so much what you said there, and your passion really came through for the topic as well. And when we're talking about shedding legacy ideas, shedding problems and technical debt, seems win win win. But I'm curious, knowing cybersecurity teams, did you get any pushback from eradicating or or moving away from the way that they've worked for twenty, thirty years and and just doing things a certain way.

[00:19:40] - [Speaker 3]
Well, as as Kevin said, we're one of the fur there's roughly four or five customers inside the early adoption program that actually have access to the code, and Zyphon's one of them, and they've been a a very participatory and active and very helpful customer in the sense of let's do this right the the first time. So no, we got almost no pushback out out of Zyphon. It's been a fantastic relationship. Might it be a challenge to other customers? I I think I I think there's work to be done to get there for sure, but I and I can see why people might be hesitant of like, wow, we're changing the way things are.

[00:20:13] - [Speaker 3]
But if you stop and look at it as an opportunity unless of a problem, I think it I I think it it it reframes it some.

[00:20:20] - [Speaker 1]
And from all the conversations you both have here, you've both given presentations, been talking to so many different people, seen keynotes, what excites you both about about the way forward? We we talk about legacy ideas and technical debt. Once we get rid of all that stuff and we're heading forward, what excites you about where we're heading?

[00:20:37] - [Speaker 2]
I would say for me, the the single word, and I was asked earlier, simplicity. Right? This is driving simplicity in our network topology. It's driving simplicity on the traffic routes. Right?

[00:20:48] - [Speaker 2]
Like we said, we don't have to send everything up to a firewall for east west validation. It's all being done at the switch. So it's one you know, it's gotta go up and back down. So that's two paths it's gotta go. It doesn't have to do that anymore.

[00:20:59] - [Speaker 2]
The ACL reduction is gonna be a huge level of effort that the team doesn't have to spend any effort on. We were constantly spending on it, spending time on it because we hit a level of max on what we could do in the ACLs. We had essentially filled it up. There was only so much space that Cisco provides to save all that information. And so every time we needed a new ACL, we had to go find something that we had to consolidate or maybe it was old and we had to just get rid of it and we didn't before.

[00:21:27] - [Speaker 2]
I don't have to do that anymore. So there's a lot of tech debt, you know, savings. It eliminated a project. And so, again, back to the keyword, it simplified it from my point of view.

[00:21:38] - [Speaker 1]
And for people that aren't listening before I for people that aren't attending and before I let you both go, what was your presentation about out of curiosity?

[00:21:46] - [Speaker 2]
Mine was more from the business aspect. Right? I got Jeff with cross connects in here. And like he said, he's my consulting arm, and they do everything from us tech. So and Cisco really wanted me to present from the customer side.

[00:21:57] - [Speaker 2]
What was our experience? What did we get out of it? In fact, they wouldn't love Jeff on the stage to talk technical. Right? So it was literally all business.

[00:22:05] - [Speaker 2]
Right? I stated things like we bought these switches. Right? I forget the exact quote, but it was something along the lines. Well, you know, would you buy a switch not knowing what it would do in the future?

[00:22:16] - [Speaker 2]
And I use the term, you know, a bet on the DPU, and we took the bet. And we bought a switch. Now I bought the switch under the notion it would be a switch. So it's gonna function just like it is today. I have nothing to lose.

[00:22:27] - [Speaker 2]
And we were hoping to have the security to have what's coming in the future and being protected. We have a five year roughly right life cycle on our switches. So if something came out a month after and they go, you gotta have this new switch. I don't have that problem. And that was the ultimate goal.

[00:22:43] - [Speaker 2]
And so we took the bet and right now I think we're winning the bet which doesn't happen too often because then yeah. It's it's very positive for us in many ways.

[00:22:53] - [Speaker 1]
And I'm curious, once you delivered those presentations, you probably both asked a certain amount of questions, whether they be technical or business related. What kind of questions were you getting? Were there any trends and the kind of things that people were asking you and wanting to learn more about?

[00:23:06] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. I mean, I would say the most of them were disbelief. Right? Disbelief in what I was presenting that Jeff put together for me in regards to the reduction of the ACL. I was like, how did you get there?

[00:23:17] - [Speaker 2]
There's no way. You know, what do you mean this could be a firewall? And so those were I mean, we had a half a dozen people and they were all just around that notion. Different aspects of the question, maybe Jeff can allude a little bit more to those, but that was the general.

[00:23:31] - [Speaker 3]
Yeah. I I think Kevin pretty well nailed it. I there was also some how does it compare to other Cisco products. There was a it was an unusual amount of like, well, what does this mean for this other product if this one's coming out? And I I I don't know that it directly overlaps in that sense.

[00:23:45] - [Speaker 3]
So there were there was some a little say a little bit of confusion around that. But other than that, yeah, it's it was just disbelief of like, how did you rewrite this? And it it's it's really not it's almost not right. It is having to shed ideas that we've been taught were right but weren't actually needed anymore. So it's simpler than it used to be, really.

[00:24:04] - [Speaker 3]
It's not it's not any more complicated. This is an easier policy to write. You could teach to people more easily, and it's and it's shorter. So why would you not wanna do this? But, anyway, the I I would agree.

[00:24:15] - [Speaker 3]
This this belief was was the number one thing.

[00:24:18] - [Speaker 1]
So many big talking points there. And for anyone listening that would like to carry on this conversation, I'll post links to both of your LinkedIn. But anywhere else you'd like me to point anyone listening that wanna find out more information?

[00:24:30] - [Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah. I I think LinkedIn's a a good starting point. Our our URL would be fine too. So for us, it's www.crossconnect.com, and there's, there's ways to get in touch there. Kevin, do you wanna add anything?

[00:24:41] - [Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[00:24:42] - [Speaker 2]
I mean, I I would think the LinkedIn's good for me, you know, because, you know, our company's website and marketing email, that would be more for the health care. And I know this is tech talk. Right? So certainly, they can reach out to me. I can give it from the business aspect.

[00:24:55] - [Speaker 2]
Obviously, I manage what cross connect does. I know everything they're doing. I put in the tickets. We put in the request. But when it comes to putting your fingers on the keyboard, that's what I hired Jeff to do.

[00:25:05] - [Speaker 2]
And so, you know, people reaching out to him directly, certainly, please feel free.

[00:25:09] - [Speaker 1]
Awesome. Well, there's so much to see and do here. Have you been to the show floor yet? I the world of solutions. Have you had time to?

[00:25:16] - [Speaker 2]
I've I've walked through there. Cisco's had us busy yesterday with presentations. Today, it's been all media, meeting people like you. So hopefully tomorrow we've met some people on the floor with Cisco directly related to the 9,300 smart switches that we have and some of their business unit people. But hopefully tomorrow, I'll get a call a little downtime and be able to walk the show floor.

[00:25:36] - [Speaker 1]
I hope so. Two words for you before you go. Lightsabers. Maybe one word. I'm not sure.

[00:25:41] - [Speaker 1]
But anyway, maybe you should go check that out. There's lots of tech swag down there. But thank you for joining me today. Appreciate your time.

[00:25:46] - [Speaker 2]
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

[00:25:47] - [Speaker 3]
Thanks very much.

[00:25:48] - [Speaker 0]
I think one of the themes that kept appearing throughout this conversation today was trust. Because health care organizations, yes, they depend on technology to move data, automate processes, support revenue cycles and protect sensitive information. But the people relying on those systems rarely see the infrastructure that is working so hard behind the scenes. And success often means nobody notices anything at all. So what I found interesting today was just how often the discussion returned to simplicity, whether it was reducing technical debt, streamlining security policies, or improving automation, or preparing for the future of AI.

[00:26:33] - [Speaker 0]
The goal here wasn't adding more complexity. It was removing barriers that they had accumulated over years of legacy thinking. And perhaps the biggest takeaway of all was innovation isn't always about introducing something new. Sometimes it's about questioning assumptions, assumptions that have existed for decades, and then finding a better way forward. But as always, I'd love to hear your thoughts here.

[00:26:59] - [Speaker 0]
What is the biggest challenge that your organization is facing, especially when trying to balance innovation, security and simplicity? As always techtalksnetwork.com, leave me an audio message, send me a DM and browse through 4,000 different interviews there. We've got a lot going on over at the site at the moment. But more than anything, thank you for listening. I'll be back again soon with another conversation and hopefully I'll speak with you all again then.

[00:27:28] - [Speaker 0]
Bye for now.