2813: Beyond Headless: Hygraph's Vision for the Future of CMS

[00:00:00] Are you ready to dive into the future of content management and discover how technology is

[00:00:07] shaping the next generation of customer experiences?

[00:00:11] While in today's episode of Tech Talks Daily, we're going to explore the intersection

[00:00:15] of technology, real world solutions, content management systems and so much more.

[00:00:22] Because today I'm going to be joined by a visionary in the tech world he's the co-founder

[00:00:26] and CEO of a company called HighGraph.

[00:00:29] And his name's Michael and he's been at the forefront of the technological innovation

[00:00:33] since he began coding websites at the tender age of 11, and with a career deeply rooted

[00:00:39] in technology, Michael brings a wealth of knowledge and insights into the evolution of

[00:00:43] content management systems.

[00:00:45] From those early days of web CMS to the cutting edge federated content platforms, we're

[00:00:51] going to embark on a journey through the advancements that are defining how businesses

[00:00:55] connect with their audiences in this digital age.

[00:00:59] Now before I get today's guest on, quick shout out to the sponsors of Tech Talks Daily

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[00:01:52] That's kiteworks.com to secure your data and empower your business.

[00:01:57] But now let's get today's guest on.

[00:02:00] So buckle up and hold on tight as I beam your ears all the way to Germany when Michael

[00:02:05] is waiting a share history.

[00:02:08] So a massive warm welcome to the show.

[00:02:11] Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

[00:02:15] Thanks Neil for having me.

[00:02:17] I'm Michael.

[00:02:18] I'm the co-founder and CEO of high graph.

[00:02:21] We are providing a next generation content management platform that is very developer centric

[00:02:28] and I'm happy to have the call with you today.

[00:02:30] Great to have you join me.

[00:02:32] And one of the things I'd love to do is find out more about my guest's origin story,

[00:02:36] the back story and what put them on the path that they're doing and what they're doing

[00:02:39] now.

[00:02:40] So what's your origin story?

[00:02:41] There's always a story right?

[00:02:43] Absolutely.

[00:02:44] So I've been in tech for pretty much all my life.

[00:02:47] I started coding at the age of 11, of course, that time it was not serious coding.

[00:02:52] It was like putting animated gifts on a website but I really loved what I was doing.

[00:02:58] So over time I became the guy building websites and web apps for friends and family later

[00:03:04] on for the businesses of friends and family.

[00:03:06] And then I decided to study computer science which I did mostly in Germany.

[00:03:11] After my master's degree in computer science,

[00:03:14] I started at only one company to work as an employee as a software developer.

[00:03:18] I started a company called Kanto.

[00:03:20] They're in the digital asset management space.

[00:03:23] So they're doing you can imagine like a drop box or Google drives for the enterprise

[00:03:29] with a market year focus.

[00:03:31] So file asset management and in particular, I was in the professional services of that

[00:03:35] company.

[00:03:36] So I would build integrations for really cool customers they had but I wouldn't build

[00:03:41] core product and that's always wanted to build core product and always take care of

[00:03:45] the distribution of the product as well.

[00:03:47] Also, along the way short at this company I met Daniel was my good friend co-founder

[00:03:52] and CTO.

[00:03:54] We thought we were able to build fantastic products so we left Kanto actually would start

[00:04:00] out building also a digital asset management system because we had the vertical know how

[00:04:04] and we had a lot of ideas how to improve what the product was doing.

[00:04:09] We were working it but really randomly it was early 2016.

[00:04:14] There was a blog post that popped up in my Twitter feed.

[00:04:18] Sprite evening shortly before bad and the blog post was called what is a headless content

[00:04:22] management system and early 2016 I didn't know what I had the CMS was.

[00:04:26] Frankly no one really knew what I had with CMS was at that time, but I was reading the

[00:04:30] article and now I was pretty amazed by what this reading I really love the concept of

[00:04:35] the headless CMS or mostly for being very sustainable and durable product model.

[00:04:42] So the headless CMS helps you basically distributing content on any platform not just websites

[00:04:48] it can help you distributing content to mobile apps smart TVs etc. even the new Apple

[00:04:55] goggles that were just released last week I believe you're already set distribute your

[00:05:03] content to this platform as well so that's what I really loved and at the same time GraphQL

[00:05:10] was just released that time was reading the blog post and Daniel and me were a huge fan

[00:05:15] voice basically of GraphQL we adopted the technology already in our other product prototype

[00:05:21] that we would build and we really liked it and what we then later did with high graph

[00:05:26] by the way formerly the company was called graph CMS we rebranded around 1.5 years

[00:05:32] ago what we did is we combined the concept of GraphQL so what we loved about GraphQL

[00:05:38] so it's a new API technology that increases your developer experience or newer by now

[00:05:43] it's not so new anymore and the headless CMS and we built the first GraphQL native headless

[00:05:48] CMS in the market which would mean you could use GraphQL to distribute your content onto

[00:05:53] any platform speed web mobile even out a new Apple Vision Pro.

[00:05:59] We've mentioned the Apple Vision Pro a few times are you tempted it's a big entry point

[00:06:04] price wise isn't it? I am tempted to be honest so last week actually

[00:06:10] coincidentally I've been in San Francisco when the goggles that the Vision Pro were released

[00:06:17] and we made a trip to the Apple Mother Ship because there's a visitor center with Apple

[00:06:22] store next to it and of course you would see also a couple of Cybertracks parking in front

[00:06:26] of it it was also the first time I saw some Cybertracks but no chance there was a gigantic

[00:06:31] line for testing the Vision Pro. I'm tempted I would love to try them out.

[00:06:38] Yeah 100% you shared your origin story there I looked a lot more about the back story

[00:06:44] of content management systems too because they evolved tremendously over the last two

[00:06:48] decades particularly in relation to the shift from traditional CMS to headless CMS and

[00:06:54] now to federated content platform for anyone listening outside of the space could you just

[00:06:59] give a bit of an overview on that journey that kind of content management systems have been

[00:07:04] on happy to have you do so content management systems have been around for quite some

[00:07:08] time they appear starting to appear in the 90s and we see them as there's been three

[00:07:16] major generations of content management platforms or systems.

[00:07:20] The first one being the web content management systems also really the easy days of the

[00:07:26] internet let's say our content management because you only needed to get your content

[00:07:30] onto a website in the web CMS so basically the traditional content management system

[00:07:35] would help you it would give you both it will give you the interface where you could manage

[00:07:38] your content in the back office but it would also give you help you building the website that

[00:07:44] is later on presented to your audience. So there was a really tight coupling between

[00:07:48] the back office and the content creation as well as the presentation of the content so we say

[00:07:53] that it's that was the time where there was a one to one relationship between the content generation

[00:07:58] process the back office and the presentation later. Now then as soon we have done we had the

[00:08:06] conversation about new devices already as soon as smartphones and other new smart devices would

[00:08:12] enter the market 10, 15 years ago really gaining rapid popularity the web CMS wouldn't cut it

[00:08:19] anymore because for a lot of platforms let's say a native iPhone app or native Android app or maybe

[00:08:27] native smart TV app or for any of the smart TV operating systems they wouldn't render websites you

[00:08:34] would build custom applications for these platforms and you wouldn't render your content coming from

[00:08:40] a website you needed to get to the pure data of your content and so the web CMS wouldn't cut it

[00:08:46] anymore that was really the era of the headless CMS this is where we also got started back then as

[00:08:52] graph CMS now I had the CMS will turn the condom management system front and agnostic it would

[00:08:57] mean that now you could distribute your content onto any of the platforms out there using an API

[00:09:04] and not the visual website as an interface to the content and so that would abstract things nicely

[00:09:11] away so we went from a one to one relationship to one to many relationship and the web CMS became

[00:09:17] front and agnostic now with what we are developing for quite some time now and we've entered

[00:09:23] the market and educating the market and position ourselves around that topic around the capability

[00:09:30] a lot is that we are looking into we're building the next generation of content management platform

[00:09:36] that we call the federated content platform federated content management platform if you will

[00:09:43] and what we are doing with this is we're turning the promise of the headless CMS around by not

[00:09:48] just being front and agnostic but also being back and agnostic that means that you cannot just

[00:09:53] distribute your content to any platform no you can source your content and data from any other

[00:09:59] back end tool that lives within your stack very often in large organizations you have multiple CMSes

[00:10:05] you have product information management systems you have digital asset management systems

[00:10:11] you have custom database legacy systems there's a lot of APIs and data sources so called

[00:10:18] data silos that is really where you would really want to expose this data and use this data and

[00:10:26] applications that you're building and with content federation so one of the differentiated

[00:10:32] tiger of key capabilities you can easily integrate third-party APIs so any rest or GraphQL API into

[00:10:40] one universal content graph and that allows your developers to build those web sites those mobile apps

[00:10:46] those app-vision apps very easy if you have the requirement of pulling data from multiple

[00:10:53] data sources which is sort of the new normal of the composable error if you will.

[00:11:01] I'm going to be exciting times and there's of course some huge figures attached to this industry as

[00:11:06] well in fact I've recently read that the digital content creation market is projected to reach

[00:11:11] 24 billion dollars by 2027 so just a few years away so how do you see content driving the next

[00:11:18] generation of customer experience is especially the context of personalization. Yeah, speed because

[00:11:23] it's racing ahead isn't it? It is an enormous market it is gigantic and one key trend that we are

[00:11:33] observing throughout the last couple of years I mean it's going on for a while now is that content

[00:11:40] is not just the marketing asset anymore very often content is being the the asset that is sold by a

[00:11:47] company already so content is becoming a business model and it's not just a supportive function of

[00:11:53] marketing to sell any let's say physical product like like the iPad or so. Think of applications

[00:12:00] as Netflix where you pay subscription for the content that is being maintained and generated

[00:12:07] or think of peloton the workout application that is that you can watch and use on your bike. Now this

[00:12:16] is also content and this content needs to be managed by content management systems such as

[00:12:22] high graph like ours and we see more and more throughout the years that the ownership of content

[00:12:30] creation is not anymore necessarily by the market years of course that's still true for the marketing

[00:12:36] content but there's more and more content that is domain specific and that is really driving this

[00:12:42] market and pushing this market to become bigger because the the primary product of companies is

[00:12:50] becoming content such as Netflix, peloton many others out there so this market will just grow bigger

[00:12:58] and you mentioned personalization I think it's necessary nowadays I think personalization you

[00:13:08] can integrate very well with content management systems so that your users become the content

[00:13:13] be it the Netflix and release be it the products be it the workouts that you want to do

[00:13:19] exactly for your requirements and I think even with AI we will see even stronger personalization

[00:13:26] because models AI models will be able to learn and identify yourself much better and probably

[00:13:33] better even understand you better than you do yourself what you want and what you want to consume

[00:13:40] next so exciting times ahead I would say. And for any business leaders listening and from the

[00:13:46] conversations you're having with your customers what would you say are the main challenges that

[00:13:51] businesses are facing right now with traditional CMS and headless CMS models and how are you addressing

[00:13:57] these issues with this like this? Yes, absolutely so what we see over and over again in the

[00:14:03] stacks of our customers is that there's a lot of locking going on I mentioned that there's a lot

[00:14:10] of hidden data and content silos in the back ends of the customer stacks in the architectures

[00:14:17] and getting this data and information out to where you need it when you build applications

[00:14:23] is really hard and cumbersome so there's a lot of data silos going on and how companies

[00:14:32] that have a lot of silos going on and a lot of data sources used to solve this before

[00:14:38] high graph before content federation is basically they would build their own middleware layer so it's

[00:14:44] a custom custom software development you built a new API layer that sort of understands what is

[00:14:52] happening under the hood in your enterprise stack pulls the data from your different CMSs

[00:14:56] from your pims from your dams from legacy systems from other from from other third party systems such

[00:15:03] as search personalization maybe even and expose us new APIs for developers so they can build applications

[00:15:11] leveraging the data out of those sources now this sounds alright this sounds like a solution to

[00:15:16] the problem but the problem with this is that it's very expensive to build this middleware layer so

[00:15:21] you have to design it you have to develop it you have to maintain it you have to secure it you have

[00:15:26] to wire it with global CDNs to make sure that your APIs and your end customer experiences are

[00:15:33] being served with below 100 milliseconds because that's the expectations and all this is very

[00:15:39] challenging and you need to have a lot of know how in house to make that happen and a lot of companies

[00:15:45] simply don't have it or overspend millions millions throughout the years building this middleware

[00:15:51] layer this is what we want to get rid of in in the stack of the customers so with high graph and

[00:15:56] configuration we want to get rid of the metham in the middle we want to replace the middleware layer

[00:16:01] so many companies build custom to wire up those data silos by simply giving you the opportunity

[00:16:08] to configure your data sources we do a little bit of magic on top we make sure that everything

[00:16:14] is performant and fast as well on the API and that you are going that you can go within minutes

[00:16:21] or a couple of hours instead of weeks months or years and just to dig a little bit deeper on that

[00:16:28] can you elaborate on the concept of federated content platforms and how they can combine

[00:16:33] composability with a federated content approach to future proof CMS investments again so much

[00:16:39] value in that isn't it absolutely so let's maybe start with with the term composability use

[00:16:48] you just use this it's quite the trend in in the enterprise software development market now

[00:16:54] what composability means is composability tries to get rid of this of the old monoliths

[00:17:02] of the old monolithic software stacks where we have one or two vendors such as in a Adobe or

[00:17:09] or other others of the big software suits that give you all the functionality that you need

[00:17:16] throughout the lifecycle of product that you're building they give you a CMS they give you

[00:17:20] search they give you personalization they give you everything what you need but nothing really

[00:17:27] specialized and my dad used to say a glue that glues everything is not a good glue so in the

[00:17:34] terms of there's now in the recent years a new trend in the market so called the so called best

[00:17:42] of breed software development where companies choose the right tools for the problems that they're

[00:17:48] trying to solve and they choose the best tools they choose the best CMS that helps them

[00:17:53] that is that is best suitable for the case they have the best search engine the best personalization

[00:18:01] and that's called the best of breed stack because you choose the best tools for your needs

[00:18:06] and this would also be a composable stack because you compose the functionality now why this science

[00:18:12] sounds really really great it comes with a big disadvantage that monolithic architecture does not

[00:18:20] and this is that all of this stuff needs to be integrated together to play well and this is again

[00:18:26] the effort of the middleware that we were referring that I was referring to referring to before now

[00:18:33] with content federation content federation is our opinionated technological answer to the problems

[00:18:41] of composability content federation allows you really to take the APIs of the systems that you

[00:18:48] purchased or built together you plug them into one universal content graph and you have a new API

[00:18:54] so so called super graph even some some vendors would refer to it like that that you can use within

[00:18:59] your applications to easy integrate like a plug and play integration of this composable stack

[00:19:06] so that you can go faster you don't have any innovation bottlenecks because the middleware is

[00:19:11] basically an innovation bottleneck in a lot of cases and this is what you want to have you want to

[00:19:17] have the best systems and those should be integrated nicely seamlessly without any additional work

[00:19:24] so that you can get most out of those systems that you purchased because otherwise it's also not a

[00:19:31] great situation if you have the best of breed stack but you cannot integrate well and you cannot harvest

[00:19:37] those effects and you mentioned a moment ago about moving away from those big monoliths and a lot of

[00:19:43] those monoliths are very expensive for organizations especially large enterprises so how do you

[00:19:49] with a high graph enable organizations to reduce those integration costs and better streamline

[00:19:55] content management across various platforms and systems because it's I would imagine you get to

[00:20:00] save a lot of money with this right absolutely as mentioned like integrating very large

[00:20:06] architectures can cost you easily in the millions over time so there's a lot of efficiency

[00:20:13] potential there so what we see often is if if a company does the digital transformation to a modern stack

[00:20:23] we would usually recommend not to do a one-off migration because as a lot of software initiatives

[00:20:31] it's risky you don't know what you get in the end until you're you're there of course you can

[00:20:37] derisk but it's a low process what is easier is just taking a functionality step-by-step

[00:20:47] migrating it over to new components and try to integrate the old world with the new world which

[00:20:54] you can do with content federation and seamlessly do a step-by-step migration over time so you

[00:21:02] can take yourself time you can test in between you can reevaluate and it's really the risk

[00:21:08] so we wouldn't recommend the one-off migration because there's so many eventually so many moving

[00:21:14] parts rip one piece out move it to the new stack and and and and and and and optimize and then

[00:21:23] you go to the next piece you want to rip out basically and with the introduction of top-level

[00:21:29] remote fields in high graph as well what other capabilities does that bring to enterprises and how do

[00:21:35] they maybe change the way that they could manage and unify content so again feels like a big change

[00:21:40] then absolutely so the top-level remote fields is actually the main functionality of federation

[00:21:47] capability we introduced content federation a while ago in a way that that you could

[00:21:54] stitch data from the CMS to a data point in a third-party system so let's say you have a product entry

[00:22:04] you have a product entry within the CMS use the CMS as product catalog and you have some

[00:22:09] external assets in a digital asset management system so content federation would help you

[00:22:14] stitch and join this data points together from CMS and external dams so within one single API

[00:22:20] call you could fetch all this information together so there was always this tight coupling between

[00:22:25] their head to be content already in the CMS that would be joined with a counterpart on the other

[00:22:30] side but the top-level remote fields really allow you a horizontal clustering of APIs and third-party

[00:22:38] services on your API which means that there does not need to be a content entry within

[00:22:44] high graph that you join together no you can pull all the data from third-party systems

[00:22:49] and then soon even do a reverse join so you start on third-party source and then join it together

[00:22:58] and enrich this content with content that you have created and managed within high graph

[00:23:03] because there is very very strong content management capabilities in high graph of course so

[00:23:08] based on our head of CMS heritage let's say incredibly cool and if you look into the future how do

[00:23:15] you envision the future of content management and the creation of digital experiences especially

[00:23:21] considering the rapid advancements in technology and changing consumer expectations we've already

[00:23:26] mentioned the Apple vision prior yes it's expensive at the moment but if you look three or four

[00:23:31] years down the line the the content actually was going to go through the roof and so many different

[00:23:37] different areas isn't it's going through the roof that the number the number of

[00:23:43] channels is just exploding now the Apple vision but there's there's also other channels where

[00:23:49] content management wasn't seen before and has now a big footprint like in gaming so in game

[00:23:56] assets if you play a game like Fortnite and you want to purchase a new skin for your player

[00:24:03] from the store this is also content that needs to be maintained in the content management system so

[00:24:09] there's more and more channels there's high expectations high quality expectations we had to

[00:24:16] the topic on personalization everyone expects nowadays to get a very strongly personalized experience

[00:24:23] you can also sort of configured by user-generated content so your behavior will

[00:24:29] should change the content that you will receive and I think one of the big shifts that we're

[00:24:36] already seeing and we'll see in the next couple of years is of course AI in content management

[00:24:42] there are so many there's so many opportunities for AI in content management there's the opportunity

[00:24:47] for generating content using AI digital assets the opportunity to help you going with your project

[00:24:55] so setting up the schema so the content modeling definitions that you need to get you going

[00:25:01] going faster AI can help you with that and one of the biggest bottlenecks in successful digital

[00:25:10] projects is that AI can help you building your whole application so not just the content but also

[00:25:17] the front end that is being consumed either by the browser or in your Apple vision AI can help you

[00:25:23] with that so a lot of developers nowadays are afraid that they will be out of chop in the couple

[00:25:30] of years I think it will take a bit longer but it's it's it's a future that can happen so we

[00:25:37] will see more and more machine-generated content there for as well and for any business leader listening

[00:25:43] today we'll set off those light bulb moments and then maybe they're looking at how they can better

[00:25:48] adapt to the latest in content management technologies any advice that you'd give them to

[00:25:53] maybe just ensure that they are making the most of these tools and ultimately staying ahead

[00:25:58] in this digital landscape but any tips or advice you'd leave them with listening I would say

[00:26:03] I would say it be friendly to your developers and engineers there's the there's this

[00:26:11] skismer going on in the world of content management I would say we're projects either led by

[00:26:18] by the CMO or projects either led by the CTO or CPO like the technical folks that

[00:26:25] build content products instead of just marketing websites and very often there's frictions on

[00:26:33] markets your lab projects that they don't want to collaborate as much or have too much dependencies

[00:26:41] to the engineers because they want to they have their campaigns they have their targets they need

[00:26:45] to hit they want to move as quickly as possible but the reality is if you want to build

[00:26:51] truly engaging digital experiences you need a lot of technical know how and strong technical

[00:26:58] teams will better be friendly to your developers fantastic advice we start at the podcast talking

[00:27:05] about your backstory or origin story and the the career path that you've been on here in it

[00:27:11] if I ask you to look back now I'm curious what has been the funniest or most interesting story

[00:27:16] I suspect there's a you picked a few of them up over the years too Rob it's any you're able to

[00:27:21] share there there's plenty but one in particular I like a lot if anyone from high graph is listening

[00:27:28] in right now they probably heard the story hundreds of five's already because I tell it on boardings

[00:27:33] I tell it company events dinners it's her but I really love the story how we met our first

[00:27:39] employee back then it was Graph CMS now high graph we were in beta for a couple of months we had a

[00:27:48] public beta going on and we would invite every beta sign up user to our public select community

[00:27:55] that would grow quickly to a couple of thousand folks to just gather feedback learn how people

[00:28:02] are using the platform and one day there was a guy texting me he had a feature request for

[00:28:09] a platform he needed support for GraphQL union types it's like a GraphQL functionality we didn't

[00:28:14] have at that time and we got into conversation in our slack about the feature he had all the requirements

[00:28:21] that was very good and at some point he would ask me where are you guys based are you coming from

[00:28:26] Cisco London Berlin or you I said so we're from Geeson that's close to Frankfurt probably you will

[00:28:34] know Frankfurt and he said are you kidding me I'm from Dutton-Holfen that's near Geeson so he was 20

[00:28:40] minutes away the next day we would meet he would still he he was still at university doing his

[00:28:45] masters and we would hire him then a couple of weeks later as our first employee he would start as

[00:28:53] a working student later on being full-time developer and then he would build the feature that he requested

[00:28:59] himself in the end and he's still with us and going strong with us so thank you Jonas for joining

[00:29:07] us on all that journey wow what a phenomenal story absolutely love that big hello to big shout out

[00:29:14] to him there as well hey but anyone listening one in a fun add a little bit more information about

[00:29:20] hi-graph the work that you're doing some of the topics we explored today where do you like to

[00:29:25] point everyone listening I think I think our website would be the best starting point that would be

[00:29:31] hi-graph.com or our YouTube channel we have a lot of fantastic content video content from our dev

[00:29:37] rail team so check it out hi-graph.com well I'll add a link to your website also I include a

[00:29:44] video in the blog post that I will use to promote this episode as well so see probably up to find

[00:29:48] that nice and easy but we covered so much there from content how it's driving the next generation

[00:29:54] of customer experiences organizations failing the pressure to deliver those integrated headless

[00:29:59] CMS and also how a federated content platform is the next generation of content management we

[00:30:05] could talk about this stuff for hours but just a bit. Thank you for showing your story today thanks

[00:30:10] for doing a happy to be here Neil thanks for having me. Having listened to Michael there I think

[00:30:15] it's clear that the landscape of content management is undergoing a profound transformation

[00:30:20] and today in a 30 minute conversation we traverse from the foundational web CMS to the dynamic

[00:30:25] realm of headless CMS and now the pioneering federated content platforms that are promising a

[00:30:32] new horizon of integrated personalized digital experiences and Michael's insights into us the

[00:30:38] significance of content in driving customer experience and that pivotal role of technology and what he's

[00:30:44] playing in enabling seamless scalable content distribution is invaluable isn't it? I will

[00:30:51] look to the future of CMS with AI and machine learning at the helm and hints at a world where

[00:30:56] content creation and personalization are not just intuitive but almost anticipatory crafting

[00:31:03] experience that resonate deeply with users food for sore and on that I invite you to ponder how

[00:31:10] your business is adapting to these technological evolution. Is your business ready to embrace the

[00:31:17] federated content platforms and harness the power of AI for a more connected personalized customer

[00:31:23] experience? And if not have you considered what could happen if the standard expectation of your

[00:31:30] customers are being met by your competitors and they'll move away from you when you can't offer

[00:31:36] a similar service. Well let's continue the conversation share your thoughts with me join the

[00:31:41] dialogue on how technology is not just solving real world problems but transforming the very fabric

[00:31:46] of every single digital interaction so email me tech blog right to outlook.com twitter linked in

[00:31:52] instagram just at nilc hues and love to hear from any of you and any of your thoughts or takeaways

[00:31:59] that you got from today's conversation but we've reached the end of this episode so keep

[00:32:04] innovating keep inspiring keep pushing those boundaries of what's possible and I'll join you

[00:32:09] again bright and early tomorrow so thank you for listening as always and until next time

[00:32:15] don't be a stranger