2870: The AI Assistant Helping You Manage Your Finances More Efficiently

[00:00:00] Have you ever found yourself staring at your bank account, wondering if there's a smarter

[00:00:06] way to manage your money? Could an AI powered assistant that not only understands your financial

[00:00:11] goals but also helps you achieve them, with a blend of humour and savvy financial advice,

[00:00:17] could that be the answer? Because this is no longer a figment of the imagination,

[00:00:21] it is a reality thanks to companies like Clio. And today I'm going to dive into

[00:00:25] the world of personal finance management and AI with none other than Sam Taylor, the VP

[00:00:31] of Technology at Clio. And Sam leads the charge in harnessing AI and machine learning

[00:00:37] in an attempt to revolutionise how we interact with our finances, all with the goal of

[00:00:42] making financial wellbeing accessible to everyone. But what is the story behind

[00:00:47] this company? How does Clio intend to stand out in such a crowded fintech space? And

[00:00:54] what role does AI play in shaping a future where financial stress is a thing of the past?

[00:01:00] Well join me today as we uncover the technology and the vision driving Clio's success, and

[00:01:05] also explore some of the challenges and opportunities of building products and platforms

[00:01:09] that are powered by AI and machine learning. And if you're a business that's exploring

[00:01:14] this, I think you'll really enjoy my conversation with Sam today.

[00:01:18] But before we get today's guest on, I need to pay the bills. We've got a huge

[00:01:22] podcast hosting fee to pay for when we're releasing 30 episodes a month, and this month

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[00:02:31] started. That's Kiteworks.com to get you started today. So buckle up and hold on tight

[00:02:37] as I beam your ears all the way to Somerset where Sam is waiting to share his story.

[00:02:43] So a massive warm welcome to the show. Can you tell everyone listening a little about

[00:02:47] who you are and what you do?

[00:02:49] Yeah, sure. Hi, Neil. My name is Sam. I'm the VP of technology at Clio. And I look

[00:02:56] after both the engineering and data and machine learning teams to work on the strategy

[00:03:02] of how we build the products, scale the systems and the people. My background is

[00:03:06] in engineering and machine learning and AI. So I studied computer science for my

[00:03:12] undergrad and a master's in machine learning at Bristol. But the last 10 years has mainly

[00:03:18] been working on products that that utilize machine learning and the last three at Clio.

[00:03:23] So Clio is an AI assistant and it tries to turn the complexity of your personal finances

[00:03:31] into a conversation. So the same kind you'd have with a friend and really trying

[00:03:36] to help people through their financial lives from that first paycheck when you get out

[00:03:42] of college or school or university up to your home and beyond. And since its inception

[00:03:50] seven years ago, we've helped 7 million people with 70% of those saying that Clio

[00:03:57] has really helped their financial life, staying on top of bills, saving their money

[00:04:02] and controlling their spending. So yeah, that's a bit about me and where I am now at Clio.

[00:04:07] I love it. And you're saying that since its inception seven years ago. And of course,

[00:04:14] AI and generative AI has only gone nuts in the last 18 months to two years. And

[00:04:19] you've got someone with an extensive background in computer science, machine learning.

[00:04:23] You've been in this for a long, long time. I'm curious, does it frustrate you and delight

[00:04:28] in equal measure how suddenly everyone gets it?

[00:04:31] I think it's actually really useful. So Clio kind of in its inception really

[00:04:41] kind of believed this transformational power of conversational AI and really building

[00:04:47] relationships with people, especially with their finances. It's a hard subject to talk about.

[00:04:54] And our founder Barney made a big bet early on that AI driven conversational interfaces

[00:05:01] would really change how people interact with their money and help them.

[00:05:08] And it's really important. So we work in the US, 177 million people in the US

[00:05:20] are living to pay paycheck to paycheck every month. So huge percentage of the US population.

[00:05:27] But over those last seven years, we've really been able to

[00:05:32] understand how people interact with AI with their finances, gather insight into

[00:05:40] each person's individual situation and using generative AI has really started to allow us to

[00:05:49] build really deep, personalised insights and proactive coaching. So to answer your question,

[00:06:00] I've seen this coming. Barney saw this coming for a long time, but really now people are

[00:06:06] seeing this coming out in different tools. And it really kind of sets Clio up to help them too.

[00:06:14] And I would say both yourself and Clio are slightly ahead of the curve here. You've seen

[00:06:19] it coming. It's enabled you to be one step ahead. So from your perspective here,

[00:06:23] how do you see generative AI shaping the future of personal finance and also enhancing user

[00:06:29] experiences? Because I would imagine this is a topic very close to your heart, right?

[00:06:34] Yeah. So yeah, I think there's lots to do. So I think personalisation is definitely a big

[00:06:42] deal. I'm probably going to mention it a couple of times. But yeah, really ensuring how

[00:06:48] Clio and how they can understand and adapt to someone's preferences is definitely a core

[00:06:57] focus for us. Clio has a really unique tone of voice, which is something our customers really

[00:07:03] love and appreciate. And that's come from those seven years of training our AI. And

[00:07:10] we want that personalisation to be seamless. So Clio and utilizing AI can adapt to what our

[00:07:20] users want. So give you some more stats. Last year in 2023, we analysed 2.3 billion

[00:07:33] user transactions. That's not just a big number. That's just a huge diversity in

[00:07:40] customers' finances. So it's about understanding how people handle their finances on a granular

[00:07:47] level. But it's also a big part of how we're continuously refining Clio. So it really resonates

[00:07:57] with them, really can connect with them one to one and is based on their actual spending

[00:08:03] and habits and preferences. So we can help them in that financial life.

[00:08:08] And before you came on the podcast, I always like to do a bit of research on my guess. I'm

[00:08:12] trying to find out a little bit more about the origin story behind the company. What lit

[00:08:16] that spark? And I was reading that Clio was actually born out of frustration with traditional

[00:08:20] banking systems. And I suspect that's maybe where the personalisation came in and moving

[00:08:25] away from that one size fits all model. But is there anything you can share around those

[00:08:29] initial challenges the team faced and how leveraging AI maybe helped you overcome some

[00:08:34] of those obstacles to create that more intuitive financial assistant? Because I think

[00:08:39] in more than 3000 interviews on here, one of the things that I learned is we all complain

[00:08:43] about stuff, but other people such as yourself and the team at Clio go out and try and create

[00:08:48] a solution to that problem. And it seems that that's what you did, right?

[00:08:52] Yeah, definitely. So like I said, I joined Clio three years ago. So it wasn't there at the

[00:08:58] beginning. But you're right, a lot of Clio's initial ideas and still strong today were some

[00:09:05] of those inefficiencies and personal nature of the banking system. The banking system has

[00:09:13] become a lot less personal. Before my time, people did have a relationship with their bank

[00:09:20] manager. They could go in and speak to them and help them. They were able to help you

[00:09:27] understand where you should cut back, where you should use your money differently.

[00:09:33] That was obviously some time ago. This is where Clio can really step in,

[00:09:38] both using that conversational interface and leveraging AI. This is where we've been able

[00:09:43] to overcome and bring back some of this personal nature. So providing personalized insights,

[00:09:51] for example, guiding people towards better financial habits or building predictive tooling

[00:09:59] to help people anticipate their needs and just give them that ability to take back control

[00:10:06] of their finances and build that confidence and ultimately live beyond that paycheck to paycheck,

[00:10:14] as kind of said, there's so many people doing that.

[00:10:19] Pass forward to present day and Clio continues to grow, particularly with the recent series

[00:10:23] C funding I was reading about. So I've got to ask with all that in mind, what are the key

[00:10:28] technology and AI milestones that you're aiming to achieve in the near future? I appreciate

[00:10:32] you probably can't share too much, but is there anything you can share around how this journey

[00:10:37] you're on to further revolutionize personal finance? Yeah. So the last year, 18 months

[00:10:44] have been a pretty wild ride in the AI world, right? It's been going very quickly,

[00:10:51] but that means we're doubling down on building out the AI that powers Clio with key

[00:10:59] enhancements on those personalized insights and the predictive tools to help people

[00:11:05] live beyond this paycheck. But it's not just the products that we can

[00:11:13] build alongside this, that are deeply personal, but also Clio itself. So how she communicates

[00:11:20] as she builds a relationship and how she is radically intelligent to kind of help you day

[00:11:27] to day. So a big part of that is financial coaching to help customers achieve those financial

[00:11:33] goals. So if that's the kind of where we're working to on the AI side, we've also got to

[00:11:43] constantly improve our engineering infrastructure and how our systems accommodate kind of the

[00:11:51] growing user base. So we've been really focusing on how we improve the reliability and scalability

[00:11:58] of our systems, but also the productivity of our developers. So we don't want teams,

[00:12:05] engineers, developers to be impeded delivering value to customers. So we really try and

[00:12:10] keep things simple. And we've been doing real advances there to ensure that's

[00:12:17] useful then and make it, they can kind of deliver value to the customer, which are ultimately the

[00:12:23] name of the game. Right? Yeah, 100%. And I would suspect that every single person listening

[00:12:28] to this podcast in a variety of countries, they all have different financial needs and you go

[00:12:34] to your traditional banks that help and everything is this one size fits all. So bring

[00:12:37] it back to that word again, personalization. It does seem to be playing a crucial role

[00:12:43] in Clio success in helping users manage their finances more effectively. So this is a tech

[00:12:49] podcast though. So how does your team utilize AI and machine learning to tailor financial advice

[00:12:54] and interactions to each individual user? Because we all hear the AI buzzword and gen AI

[00:12:59] this and that, but it's great to hear how you're solving a real world problem with it.

[00:13:04] Yeah. So let's take, let's take two. So we've been with the advances in LMS, we've been really

[00:13:13] kind of leveraging those to understand how they are having a conversation with customers.

[00:13:20] So we've been able to bring those in and deeply integrate those into Clio. But a key

[00:13:27] part of that is Clio's tone of voice. We have to keep that and we have,

[00:13:35] we have a team of content designers at Clio, many of which are stand-up comedians. So that

[00:13:42] is part of how they're integrates that type of tone of voice so we can build that relationship.

[00:13:49] So yeah, we were integrating that into, into Clio with the LMS. But also we have to

[00:13:56] understand people's finances. I don't know if you've looked at your bank statement recently

[00:14:00] and the weird text that describes or supposed to describe where you spent your money.

[00:14:07] We have a lot of machine learning and AI to pass that out and understand what that is.

[00:14:13] And then also build the patterns so we can use things like our AI budget or the conversations

[00:14:20] that people have with Clio. And it's not those weird strings, it's really deep rich information

[00:14:27] about your personal finances. But not in just that transaction, over time and over kind of

[00:14:36] your life at Clio. So yeah, we've really used AI in many different ways but there are two

[00:14:44] that help, I suppose, understand your finances and understand how to talk to you about them.

[00:14:50] And as I said at the very beginning of our conversation, from the outside looking in,

[00:14:54] it feels like Clio is somewhat ahead of the curve when it comes to AI and machine learning.

[00:14:58] You've been on a long journey here. And question I've got to ask is,

[00:15:02] how do you stay ahead of the curve? Especially in terms of innovation while

[00:15:06] ensuring security and privacy of user data because it's quite a delicate balancing act,

[00:15:11] I would imagine. This is a really interesting subject because it's going so fast.

[00:15:19] But in terms of innovation, the real big thing that I help the teams on or want to install

[00:15:26] in teams is experimentation. The experimentation is massively important. It allows everybody,

[00:15:34] all employees at Clio, to come up with ideas, have pop seeds and be able to prove or disprove

[00:15:39] them. So being able to experiment and learn is super important and it has to be low friction.

[00:15:48] And in terms of enabling the team for this, this experimentation, this innovation,

[00:15:55] two things come to mind. One is we keep our engineering stack really simple.

[00:16:02] So along with our company values, we also have engineering principles,

[00:16:06] two of which are kind of pertinent here. We innovate on our product, not our tech stack.

[00:16:15] And technical debt is useful. So this is important because it really keeps us delivering

[00:16:22] at pace and focusing on building value for the customer. So it means we can keep that

[00:16:27] high velocity and experimentation so we can learn fast and learn at speed as one of our

[00:16:33] company values. And then the other side, a lot of technical innovation which feeds into the

[00:16:41] product is coming from AI and machine learning. Like everyone is talking about it and we've been

[00:16:45] talking about, but that has to really come from a group of people or team. So we build

[00:16:51] our product in cross-functional teams called squads and they have a mix of product,

[00:16:57] engineering, machine learning, analytics, design, user research, content designers.

[00:17:02] So a whole host of different types of people and disciplines because innovation really comes from

[00:17:09] understanding our users, the data and the art are possible from technology. So it's important

[00:17:16] to have those mix of disciplines to ideate on how we're going to build. But then we also,

[00:17:23] outside of squads, in between planning cycles we have what we call a fire break week.

[00:17:32] So this is between, so we don't work in quarters, we work in terms

[00:17:37] for months long and we have what we call a fire break week. So this is where

[00:17:41] people get outside of their squads and work with other people and that really cross-pollinates

[00:17:47] ideas. So yeah, really to summarize that innovation piece is multifaceted. It's

[00:17:56] technology, it's people and it's structure which then leads us to building products customers

[00:18:01] really love and that is ever improving and that's the name of the game of experimentation.

[00:18:09] I love how you mention technology, people and structure and I also noticed before you came

[00:18:13] on that the team at Clio has grown significantly in the past year. So on that principle that you

[00:18:19] just shared there, how do you foster that culture of innovation and collaboration within

[00:18:23] your tech teams and how does that culture ultimately contribute to the development of

[00:18:28] Clio's products? And the reason I asked that question, I think there were so many teams and

[00:18:32] so many enterprises of all sizes at the moment, they hear about AI or whatever shiny

[00:18:37] technology they're after and the CEO will say, I want that technology and out they go.

[00:18:41] But of course it's so much more than that, it is technology, people, structure and changing

[00:18:46] the company culture to make it all possible. So what's your secret here for anybody that's

[00:18:50] just beginning this path? Yeah, so we've talked a lot about experimentation that is

[00:18:59] so make it happen and learn at speeds are two of our company values and experimentation

[00:19:05] really sits within that and allowing people to be able to experiment is important. And then

[00:19:12] the other side of that, you need guides, right? You need to know kind of where you're going. We

[00:19:17] have our mission to help people live beyond a page, a paycheck. But also we have objectives

[00:19:26] and key results. And these are at the team level and at the company level.

[00:19:33] And it really sets that guide for how to move forward. So we have the good cultural stuff for

[00:19:41] experimentation and our values, but we need to be able to measure where we're going. And

[00:19:45] Clio is really data informed. We're constantly sharing our learnings and what we're testing

[00:19:57] whilst building very quickly. So yeah, that guides as well as experimentation and how that

[00:20:03] team is set up is really kind of that enabler while the team is growing fast. But also you

[00:20:14] have to hire the right people and think it clear we've done a really great job at that.

[00:20:18] We hire against our engineering people, engineering principles and our values.

[00:20:24] So that's kind of really the first step into keeping and maintaining our culture,

[00:20:31] but also adding on top of it. And we've got these systems in place to really help that

[00:20:38] come through into the product that we're building.

[00:20:42] And earlier in our conversation, we were talking about how difficult and

[00:20:45] challenging it can be with the pace of technological change and keeping up with it.

[00:20:50] If I were to have asked you two years ago, just how big gen AI would be, even if someone

[00:20:54] in the heart of that space, I don't think you would have predicted just how quickly it would

[00:20:59] enter the mainstream. So it's a very difficult question. But if we do look into the future,

[00:21:04] how do you envision the role of AI and technology and personal finance evolving?

[00:21:08] What are you seeing now? And what steps are you taking at Clio to maybe lead that

[00:21:12] transformation and support better financial wellbeing for the next generation coming up?

[00:21:18] Yeah, I mean, I definitely couldn't have predicted the wild ride we've been on over the last

[00:21:25] couple of years and the pace. So I think the next big role AI has is assistance

[00:21:34] and assistance to help with lots of different aspects of your life. So if we look at kind of

[00:21:42] what we have right now, we've had a massive increase in the intelligence and the usefulness

[00:21:50] of chat interfaces, the likes of chat GPT, giving people access to a huge host of information,

[00:21:58] but also the ability to really cut down data and give it to you very succinctly and

[00:22:06] understandably. I think of this as reactive. So you'll go into that AI,

[00:22:11] you're going to ask questions you have a thought you need help with.

[00:22:18] Where I'm most excited next is agents and assistants. So AI helping you in the background

[00:22:30] and this may not just be in finances, but you can think of multiple forms of AI helping you

[00:22:42] in the background in some ways, kind of automagically optimizing parts of your life.

[00:22:48] Clio is this for personal finances, how it can help you in the background.

[00:22:52] And you won't have to then in the future, go to AI to ask these questions. It will have

[00:23:03] the ability to look at your financial data. Clio can do that and provide you guidance

[00:23:09] proactively, but also your health and fitness data. You don't have to go and look at your

[00:23:15] watch and scroll through and understand kind of where you're at today, but it will be

[00:23:21] proactive. It will be providing you summaries that you need and helping you with tasks in the

[00:23:25] background. And that's where we're going with Clio and AI to be that real financial assistant

[00:23:35] that is there for you in helping you and being proactive. So yeah, we've got reactive.

[00:23:43] I think the next kind of stream will be proactive agents and assistants helping you

[00:23:50] in all different forms of your life. And on a more personal level, of course,

[00:23:55] there's a real pressure on everyone to be in a state of almost continuous learning

[00:23:58] to keep up to speed with this technological change. So I've got to ask,

[00:24:02] where or how do you self-educate? Any advice you can pass on to the listeners?

[00:24:07] Yeah, so yeah, it's definitely a big deal right now. In the AI world, but also

[00:24:12] massively important to my position. I do this in a couple of ways. I like to spend time with

[00:24:19] the team. I have skip levels across all my areas, and that's both to understand

[00:24:27] what they're working on so I can learn from that, what challenges they have. So

[00:24:31] I might be able to go and research and help them. This also gives me that buzz

[00:24:37] that I got when I was hands-on. I get to see people building things, which is great.

[00:24:45] But I also still read a lot. I try and keep on top of the papers in the AI world.

[00:24:53] So a couple weeks ago, I read a paper called Thinking Assistance. I can't remember the full

[00:24:58] title, but this was about building a thought partner to think alongside you with an LLM.

[00:25:06] So that's the AI world. I think it's still important to keep track of the research papers

[00:25:13] that are out there. I also try and keep up to date on books. Will Larson is a great CTO

[00:25:23] at a couple different places. He's written some really good books for engineering leaders,

[00:25:28] but also engineers. So I've just been reading the Engineering Electives Primer.

[00:25:37] And then finally, I'm still a builder at heart. I love getting my hands dirty when I have time.

[00:25:47] So I do try and play with the new AI that's coming out, the new models that are being

[00:25:54] released, but also things my team are building. So I try to still have a poke about when I can.

[00:26:04] Obviously not as much time to do that as used to in different roles.

[00:26:11] But yeah, I do try and keep as sharp as I can there.

[00:26:14] – Yeah, I think that curiosity, when you've got that tech IT blood running through your

[00:26:20] veins, that never leaves you. You always want to keep your hands dirty and look under the

[00:26:24] hood at how it all works. And for anyone listening though just wants to find out more

[00:26:28] information about Clio, dig a little bit deeper, contact you or your team, or we'll

[00:26:32] just find out more about Clio. What's the best starting point?

[00:26:34] – Yeah, so you can go to our website, so meetclio.com,

[00:26:40] or our socials, Instagram is at meetclio or LinkedIn, it's clioai. We're also hiring,

[00:26:48] so we're hiring across Clio, but also especially in the tech team for engineers,

[00:26:54] analysts, machine learning engineers. So yeah, you can find jobs on our website.

[00:27:02] Or yeah, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn, it's Sam Taylor. You should be able

[00:27:08] to find me, it's a relatively common name, but put Clio at the end and you should find me

[00:27:12] pretty quickly. – Awesome. Well, I'll add links to everything there so people can find you

[00:27:16] nice and easily, including of course the jobs page if we've got any techies listening that want

[00:27:21] to check that out. And so many things I love about what you're doing here. Whenever people

[00:27:25] talk about the world of finance they always talk about the 1%, but I love how Clio has

[00:27:29] positioned yourself as a platform for the 99% with this AI assistant defining a new category

[00:27:35] in many ways. One that goes beyond just saving and budgets, actually changing how we feel about

[00:27:41] our finances. And yes, it is sophisticated technology under the hood, but I think it's the

[00:27:46] simplicity and the humour behind Clio as well that is so refreshing. But more than anything,

[00:27:51] thanks so much for just sharing the story behind it and the great work you're doing there.

[00:27:55] Thanks for joining me today, Sam. – Yeah, thanks a lot.

[00:27:58] I think it's clear that the fusion of AI and personal finance is not just changing

[00:28:03] the game, it's attempting to rewrite the rules. And Clio's journey from a vision born

[00:28:08] out of frustration with traditional banking to a platform empowering over 7 million people

[00:28:14] to take control of their financial lives is nothing short of inspiring. And with AI-driven

[00:28:20] conversational interfaces and a deep commitment to personalised financial advice that removes

[00:28:25] bias and adds inclusivity, I wish Clio the best of luck in charging towards a future where

[00:28:31] managing money is not just easier but a lot more engaging. And I think as we look ahead,

[00:28:37] the possibilities of AI as proactive assistants in our financial lives seems completely boundless.

[00:28:44] But it also leaves me with a thought-provoking question. How can we leverage AI, not just in

[00:28:49] finance but in other areas of our lives? Areas to make everyday decisions simpler, smarter and

[00:28:57] more aligned with our personal, unique, individual long-term goals. And this is where

[00:29:02] I put the microphone in front of you because I don't have all the answers here. I invite

[00:29:06] you to share with me your thoughts, your perspectives and join the conversation on

[00:29:11] how technology can reshape the landscape, not just of personal finance but of every area you

[00:29:17] can imagine. So please email me techblogwriteratlook.com, Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram,

[00:29:22] just at Neil C Hughes. Let's keep this conversation going. But that's it for today,

[00:29:27] so just a big thank you for listening as always and until next time, don't be a stranger.