2885: From Control to Freedom: Self and the Quest for User Empowerment

[00:00:00] In a digital age where the boundaries between personal freedom and technological encroachment

[00:00:07] continue to blur, how do we navigate that complex relationship between ethics, technology

[00:00:15] and our inherent human rights?

[00:00:17] Well today I'm going to sit down with Jonathan MacDonald, a trailblazer in the realm of ethical

[00:00:23] technology and the visionary behind Self.app. And with a history steeped in the fight for

[00:00:30] user control and privacy dating right back to the 70s, Jonathan offers a compelling narrative

[00:00:37] to the potential of technology to empower rather than diminish.

[00:00:42] And as we explore his journey today from the early days of computing to leading the

[00:00:47] charge against tech's dystopian trends and we've all seen a few of those on our

[00:00:52] news feeds over the last few weeks, Jonathan's going to share his vision for a future where

[00:00:56] technology serves humanity on our terms.

[00:01:01] But what does it take to pivot the tech industry towards a more ethical path?

[00:01:06] And how does Self embody this shift by putting control back into the hands of its users?

[00:01:12] Well these are just a few other questions we're going to explore today so buckle up

[00:01:17] and hold on tight as I beam your ears all the way towards Australia today where Jonathan

[00:01:23] is waiting to share his story.

[00:01:27] So a massive warm welcome to the show, can you tell everyone listening a little about

[00:01:32] who you are and what you do?

[00:01:34] Sure thing, well thanks for having me, my name is Jonathan MacDonald, I've been

[00:01:38] an entrepreneur for almost 40 years now so I'm older than I sound and so now I've

[00:01:46] been in building businesses and health and companies grow small and large including

[00:01:51] my own, I've had 10 startups on my own, I'm on my 11th now and so yeah I'm basically

[00:01:58] always doing one thing which is always the same except people call it something different

[00:02:04] so what I've been involved with is always trying to reverse the power that big tech

[00:02:11] has over the public and reinstate it as subservient to people, to work for people under their

[00:02:19] control including having your data to yourself, sovereign your own agency of your information

[00:02:27] and so that's what I've always been doing since I was a kid since the late 70s and

[00:02:33] so now obviously it's slightly more fashionable than it was in the 70s, 80s and 90s but

[00:02:38] it's still basically bashing your head against the wall and trying to convince the world, richest

[00:02:44] full of humans that it could be a lot more utopian and dystopian if we thought of things

[00:02:50] differently, that's basically what I do.

[00:02:52] And that's so much of what I love about what you're doing here why I invited you

[00:02:56] on the podcast because I'm curious though before we go into this and dig a little

[00:03:01] bit deeper into your story I'd love to find out how it all began for you, you said

[00:03:05] this started right from a kid, what lit the spark in you that entrepreneurial side using

[00:03:11] technology for freedom etc.

[00:03:13] Was there a pivotal moment that put you on this path?

[00:03:17] Yeah I think that my starting point was my father was a computer scientist and an engineer

[00:03:26] for various tech large infrastructure firms like Marconi and NASA and so he bought a

[00:03:35] computer at home, computers home when I was growing up like three four five years old.

[00:03:40] So I was in the mid 70s exposed to long before the worldwide web I mean it's just

[00:03:48] almost 20 years before the worldwide web so this is old school internet and so I've

[00:03:53] always been looking at these tools as what we can do with them for and through my

[00:03:57] non-cynical innocent perspective I figured that we could get these things to help

[00:04:03] us and little did I know that there is an entirely cynical version of that which was

[00:04:11] you human are the battery your attention and tolerance that our junk will feed our

[00:04:19] shareholder value and those concepts don't occur to you when you're five

[00:04:23] and when they do occur to you when you're kind of like 10 or 15 this horrible

[00:04:29] moment of realisation I have stopped seeing your tracks and you give up or you

[00:04:36] double down and go all this is what I'm gonna dedicate this to my career to sort

[00:04:39] it out.

[00:04:40] So much film about that I always say in every episode here that technology works

[00:04:46] best when it brings people together and I love demystifying technology talk

[00:04:50] about a language that everyone can understand and how it can transform

[00:04:53] our lives our work and even world and I think it's all too often in life

[00:04:59] when we're just talking about your childhood there we begin with this go to

[00:05:02] school get job get married get house and I think there's so much more to life

[00:05:07] than that and your work exemplifies that and it's also that that fundamental

[00:05:12] human right to freedom that you seem to be so passionate about as well

[00:05:15] especially in the context of modern business models and technology

[00:05:19] platforms so to set the scene for our conversation today can you just

[00:05:22] share how self-technology embodies this principle everything we're

[00:05:26] talking about here particularly in the contrast to those walled ecosystems

[00:05:30] that are prevalent in the industry right now.

[00:05:32] Yeah for sure I mean my work with self is multi-layered because on the face of it

[00:05:43] I'm involved in creating a personal language model artificial intelligence

[00:05:48] and what we call adaptive AI which is under your control and is your

[00:05:52] personal algorithm with your self-server and that's what it looks like

[00:05:59] right from the go to self.app you'll see that that's the offering as it were

[00:06:05] but the wider picture the broader landscape is somewhat more abstract than that

[00:06:12] what I believe the future of operations systems should work like

[00:06:17] is the viseagnostic way that any application that's used is yours under

[00:06:26] your control and is intelligent to your preferences and desires and demands

[00:06:31] and so for that end game of an operating system or operation systems like

[00:06:37] that are the one that I have been building for eons behind the scene

[00:06:44] is called entirety waiting for two primary three primary things to happen

[00:06:49] one was distributed ledger technology to really work blockchain and the second

[00:06:54] is artificial intelligence to be able to be under your control and the third

[00:06:58] is quantum computing.

[00:07:00] The engine room for that has to be your own personal algorithms and so if

[00:07:06] you kind of build it backward from the end game which arguably is

[00:07:11] actually a starting line the components that are required if we look at

[00:07:16] the bits there I mean I was involved in the crypto world since the 90s the

[00:07:22] early chat rooms of the of the World Wide Web.

[00:07:25] I was a follower of a guy called Tim May and a guy called Eric Hughes and

[00:07:29] guy called John Gilmore and so in that there was quite a rebellious

[00:07:33] street to those conversations that became the cypherpunk movement and

[00:07:37] part of the cypherpunk selectronic mailing list was pretty edgy at the time

[00:07:42] and that was the early days of crypto blockchain and there's the

[00:07:49] B-Money paper in 1998 by a guy called Wadi 10 years later the Bitcoin

[00:07:54] white paper so you know by the time Bitcoin came out not only were we

[00:07:59] all mining coins each day but equally we'd already been talking about it

[00:08:04] 15 years and various things such as that was that part with self on the AI side

[00:08:11] I was watching through the 80s there was the AI winter as it was known 80s

[00:08:15] into 90s and then the machine learning algorithms started to kick in

[00:08:20] quite heavily and IBM and other firms were really kind of investing

[00:08:25] into these spaces and then I noticed that the large language models

[00:08:28] were moving further and further away from what I would see as ideology

[00:08:32] of human rights not least the fact that our first fundamental human

[00:08:37] right according to the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights is that

[00:08:41] all humans are born free and equal in dignity and rights and I've always

[00:08:44] natively figured that that included our own personal tater so quite how

[00:08:49] that's been categorically and and lesbarrously abused is something

[00:08:54] that I find shopped into this day and so started to build self as an

[00:08:58] antidote to that and then of course we need that the the the environment

[00:09:04] of quantum computing to to process things in a far more efficient way

[00:09:08] and luckily because of various different Moore's law exponential growth

[00:09:14] theorem and realities these things are now more possible things that I

[00:09:18] was dreaming about in 1979 became slight more realistic in 89

[00:09:23] quite quite visible in 99 and then watershed moment 2008 2009 2019

[00:09:32] the world started to pick some of these concepts up and piece them

[00:09:34] together and I think by 2029 we'll look back and go well that was

[00:09:39] obvious and everything seems improbable until it's done right so

[00:09:44] it's been a bit of a mische.

[00:09:46] And you said looking back there you know you were right in the heart

[00:09:50] of things from the beginning of the Bitcoin days and how

[00:09:53] everything looks obvious did you spend 10,000 bitcoins on two

[00:09:56] pizzas back in the day do you have any war stories from those

[00:09:59] days?

[00:10:00] Yeah, yeah I spend quite a number of Bitcoin on a char and and

[00:10:04] I'd just say not to talk about it.

[00:10:09] And as you said there you know the United Nations Universal

[00:10:13] Declaration of Human Rights he champions that idea of all

[00:10:15] human beings are born free and equal with dignity and rights

[00:10:19] but you take a look around out there and that's not what we're

[00:10:21] seeing.

[00:10:22] I know this is something you're passionate about so can you tell

[00:10:24] me a little bit more about this mission and the development

[00:10:27] strategies you have itself?

[00:10:29] And in what ways you're ensuring that these rights are

[00:10:32] respected and upheld they don't have to be a pipe dream

[00:10:35] we can make it happen right?

[00:10:37] That's right I mean it's not tremendously complicated to

[00:10:42] change to at least entertain a perspective that's

[00:10:47] different I mean if you have a perspective of big tech which

[00:10:50] is command and control eyeballs, tension, number go up,

[00:10:55] shareholder get rich, human put up with it that's one angle.

[00:11:00] The other version is you know what we could have is a bunch

[00:11:03] of commitments to how you operate your business and how

[00:11:06] you build and so itself which is the engine room of

[00:11:09] entirety the operating system which will start to be more

[00:11:13] visible as the weeks and months go by.

[00:11:18] At the time of recording obviously we're in 2024 where

[00:11:23] this is our year to actually start telling the public about

[00:11:26] what we're doing including light paper and white paper

[00:11:29] and economics and stuff but the commitments that we have are

[00:11:32] the opposite of what I've just mentioned is the kind of

[00:11:34] dystopian view of large tech and we have commitments such as

[00:11:39] decisions that are made have to be in accordance with

[00:11:42] the human rights not just the first one around freedom

[00:11:44] but everything else.

[00:11:45] We also believe that we shouldn't cause or enable harm

[00:11:48] while upholding those rights.

[00:11:50] Now we believe that enabling people to have control and

[00:11:54] ownership over their own data inside how it's used as

[00:11:56] fundamental principle.

[00:11:58] I think that we should all be fully transparent in our

[00:12:02] practices so that people understand how we operate

[00:12:04] not least go on brilliant oddcasts like yours which

[00:12:08] I found it absolutely brilliant that when you were looking

[00:12:11] at the podcast I'm wondering why some of your

[00:12:14] episodes went on there because you recorded so many

[00:12:18] of the first 2000.

[00:12:19] So being transparent is part of being on these kind of

[00:12:24] podcasts and yours especially.

[00:12:26] We also think that upholding regulation and legislation

[00:12:28] is important in the territory so that we're not

[00:12:32] operating against the system abhorrantly to kind of

[00:12:37] stick two fingers up to the machine.

[00:12:38] What I'd prefer to do is try and fix the machine if

[00:12:41] possible or at least one percent at a time or at

[00:12:44] least one life at a time.

[00:12:46] And then finally to not sacrifice any of our

[00:12:48] responsibilities in pursuing commercial gain which

[00:12:51] is probably the reason why vast volume of VCs

[00:12:55] and even private equity in angels have turned their

[00:12:59] noses up with what we're doing because the

[00:13:02] priority is not to commercial gain the

[00:13:04] priority is human rights.

[00:13:06] And and however I believe that if you create a

[00:13:08] significant amount of value to humans then you

[00:13:10] can monetize it as you wish in accordance to those

[00:13:13] rights.

[00:13:13] So for instance people will pay for things that

[00:13:16] they value if they show is something that's

[00:13:19] benefiting their lives.

[00:13:20] They will reluctantly pay for things that they

[00:13:23] have to get your pay all for.

[00:13:25] But over time I don't believe that those bets

[00:13:29] are the most solid or have the most longevity.

[00:13:32] And at the moment the market would say opposite

[00:13:34] and from being rejected by most investors I've

[00:13:38] certainly felt the the wrath of answering

[00:13:43] incorrectly when people say so surely what you

[00:13:45] can do is you're going to harvest everyone's

[00:13:47] data and sell it to the highest bidder.

[00:13:49] And I'm like no that sounds horrible.

[00:13:51] And then there's humble weed you know the

[00:13:53] phone goes dead and and none of the emails

[00:13:55] get responded to.

[00:13:56] But anyway they're the commitments that make

[00:13:58] and and it's not necessarily the most popular

[00:14:01] view and it's a pretty lonely journey.

[00:14:05] But it is not a popularity contact.

[00:14:08] 100% I think it was Jack Parsons that once said

[00:14:11] that freedom is a two-edged sword of which one

[00:14:13] edges liberty and the other edges responsibility

[00:14:16] but I prefer the Spider-Man quote with great

[00:14:19] power comes great responsibility in the

[00:14:22] digital realm though how to self balance these

[00:14:24] two aspects particularly in terms of things

[00:14:26] like user data and privacy because again huge

[00:14:29] topics right now.

[00:14:30] Yeah I think the starting point is who's in

[00:14:34] control and you decide as a tech that's on

[00:14:38] that the user should be in control then it

[00:14:40] has a rabbit hole that you go down which

[00:14:44] is pretty tricky to navigate because the

[00:14:47] end of the Jack Parsons quote he mentioned

[00:14:49] in 1946 is that both edges of that double

[00:14:51] edge sword are exceedingly sharp and the

[00:14:53] weapon is not suited to casual cowardly

[00:14:55] or treacherous hands.

[00:14:56] What that really means is that if you

[00:14:58] if you take liberty on one side which is

[00:15:00] nice and fun to speak of you know people

[00:15:02] are choosing what they do the responsibility

[00:15:06] side of things is well okay so let's imagine

[00:15:09] you create a fully socialized platform

[00:15:12] where everyone can do everything and

[00:15:13] there's no law then how do you handle

[00:15:16] people who want to do malevolent things.

[00:15:20] It's easy when you look at people doing

[00:15:22] benevolent things because they are

[00:15:25] operating probably within the law and

[00:15:28] anyway but if they're doing malevolent

[00:15:30] things and they're wanting to cause harm

[00:15:32] to other people what's responsibility do

[00:15:35] you have as a platform if you've given

[00:15:37] the absolute freedom to people so those

[00:15:40] tricky dinner party questions become

[00:15:43] your strategic backbone and you have to

[00:15:46] have answers to those things and my

[00:15:48] answers to those things is in the

[00:15:49] commitments that I mentioned in terms

[00:15:51] of upholding the regulations and

[00:15:53] legislations in the territories that

[00:15:54] we operate but also not causing harm

[00:15:57] to people by upholding human rights so

[00:15:59] there's a balancing act here where if

[00:16:01] for instance a country government or

[00:16:04] regulatory body said well what we

[00:16:07] require is us to have access to things

[00:16:10] that you've told humans that is

[00:16:13] completely theirs my answer to that would

[00:16:16] be well I'm totally okay with that

[00:16:18] provider that we tell the humans that

[00:16:20] this is what we've been asked to

[00:16:21] provide and allow the humans the

[00:16:23] rights to say no I mean that's not

[00:16:25] absurd right surely that's okay

[00:16:28] surely it's all right to give humans

[00:16:30] the rights to say what happens their

[00:16:32] information and that's that's that it

[00:16:35] seems remarkably straightforward to me

[00:16:38] if you look at it through the eyes of

[00:16:39] this permission and and preference but

[00:16:43] it's extraordinarily difficult if what

[00:16:45] you're trying to do is pull the wool

[00:16:46] over people's eyes and go hey use

[00:16:48] this GPT that form it's fun you know

[00:16:51] you can ask it to write you a

[00:16:52] song or a poem and look how amazing

[00:16:55] this graphic imagery is on mid-journey

[00:16:56] and of course you know we will try and

[00:16:59] cover over the fact that in the terms

[00:17:01] of conditions all of the data isn't

[00:17:02] actually yours anymore and if you upload

[00:17:04] a photo of your kids to Facebook they

[00:17:05] actually own the rights to monetize it

[00:17:07] we'll worry about that later you've

[00:17:09] taken the terms of conditions happy

[00:17:10] days I think that's absolutely

[00:17:13] categorically against everything that

[00:17:17] we should be doing as a society

[00:17:19] agree more as we go further down that

[00:17:23] rabbit hole you've opened up

[00:17:25] the AI word we've done really is

[00:17:27] 15 minutes on a tech podcast before

[00:17:28] we've mentioned it but you are you open

[00:17:30] the door mentioning mid-journey there

[00:17:32] and of course with the rapid

[00:17:33] advancement of AI usually in that

[00:17:36] argument or any conversation around

[00:17:38] it's not too long until we start

[00:17:39] talking about the ethical

[00:17:41] considerations surrounding user data

[00:17:43] and privacy because they're getting

[00:17:45] more and more complex it is very

[00:17:47] straightforward like you said but

[00:17:48] some of the rules around that are just

[00:17:49] incredibly complex so how do you

[00:17:52] itself and this adaptive AI platform

[00:17:54] how do you navigate these ethical

[00:17:56] on chart digital waters and ensuring

[00:17:58] that data is not just protected but

[00:18:00] also in a manner that benefits the

[00:18:02] user to I think there's two sides

[00:18:06] to that as well one it's the one that

[00:18:08] I mentioned in terms of who is in

[00:18:10] control of whose permission is given

[00:18:12] I either you each individual human

[00:18:15] but the other side is is our design

[00:18:18] approach and the design approach

[00:18:20] I don't mean graphical design I

[00:18:21] mean design of our entire

[00:18:23] corporate structure and our strategy

[00:18:26] and the features and the way that

[00:18:30] we come to market are offering and

[00:18:33] in the the decision criteria based

[00:18:37] on the commitments I mentioned

[00:18:38] earlier is easier when you know what

[00:18:41] you stand for and if you have a

[00:18:44] gray area of what what is the right

[00:18:46] decision under these circumstances

[00:18:49] sadly that gray area tends to

[00:18:51] skew towards commercial gain and

[00:18:53] I'm not saying by the way commercial

[00:18:54] game is bad and I think

[00:18:56] commercial gains fantastic it's just

[00:18:58] that if you sacrifice things that

[00:19:01] are right for things that will

[00:19:05] make more profit then your ultimate

[00:19:08] purpose is number go up and and

[00:19:11] then what happens is you end up in

[00:19:13] a situation where you're looking

[00:19:14] at decisions of saying well you know

[00:19:16] is it right for us to quietly

[00:19:20] sell some of the information we've

[00:19:22] got to a market research agency

[00:19:23] no one will ever know about it and

[00:19:25] it will help the banner sheet will be

[00:19:26] able to build lots of really good

[00:19:28] things for humans and wrap holding

[00:19:29] human rights but you know no one's

[00:19:32] really going to know if we kind of

[00:19:34] anonymize information and sell it

[00:19:36] to she earn a market research

[00:19:38] agency we can even class it as

[00:19:40] as providing the world with data

[00:19:42] and that seems quote unquote

[00:19:46] innocent with a small eye.

[00:19:48] Yeah the truth there is is that

[00:19:49] if your design principles are well

[00:19:52] that's even if information is

[00:19:54] anonymized the user needs to decide

[00:19:56] whether or not their anonymized

[00:19:57] information is used in market

[00:19:58] research and more so how about if

[00:20:01] some of the money that comes from

[00:20:02] that market research was then

[00:20:04] given back to consumers at their

[00:20:05] own demand maybe maybe here's a

[00:20:07] here's a outrageous thought maybe

[00:20:09] they can actually set the price

[00:20:12] and so that when if if they want

[00:20:14] us to monetize their information

[00:20:16] who knew maybe they can actually

[00:20:18] say well we want it to happen and

[00:20:20] this is the price we want it to

[00:20:21] happen at and so it's not a

[00:20:23] tremendously complicated it's just

[00:20:26] that it's the opposite of the way

[00:20:29] they used to love that and before

[00:20:33] you came on the podcast I was

[00:20:34] doing a little research on you

[00:20:35] and I was reading self six

[00:20:37] commitments and how they were

[00:20:38] testament to the dedication that

[00:20:40] you have towards human rights

[00:20:41] transparency ethical business

[00:20:43] practices and knowing what you

[00:20:45] stand for writing those mission

[00:20:46] statements and those commitments

[00:20:48] is arguably the easy part so I

[00:20:50] have to ask what kind of

[00:20:52] challenges and triumphs have you

[00:20:53] encountered on your own unique path

[00:20:56] when trying to adhere to these

[00:20:58] commitments especially when you're

[00:20:59] faced with the commercial pressures

[00:21:01] within the tech industry too

[00:21:03] because again it's quite a balancing

[00:21:04] act well yeah well you're right

[00:21:07] and the word commercial pressures

[00:21:09] argue our answers one of those

[00:21:11] struck if the bat the biggest

[00:21:13] challenge of all is is fundraising

[00:21:15] because the majority of people

[00:21:17] think I one of two things one is

[00:21:20] you're talking nonsense it's too

[00:21:21] ideological the other is well make

[00:21:24] a load of profit and then we'll

[00:21:25] believe it and very very very few

[00:21:28] go yeah this is the right thing to

[00:21:29] do we'll back it and it would

[00:21:33] appear to be the most obvious but

[00:21:35] it's certainly the biggest

[00:21:37] challenge because that's not

[00:21:39] the way that the investment seems

[00:21:40] to work on the other side one of

[00:21:43] the upside of the you know the

[00:21:44] positive I guess is that

[00:21:47] the loyalty I mean we just

[00:21:49] in test base are we testing

[00:21:51] people we've got several thousand

[00:21:53] people on waiting this and we

[00:21:54] took feet a hundred couple of

[00:21:56] hundred in at a time there's

[00:21:58] people who anyone god self

[00:21:59] happened to try to step out

[00:22:00] but the loyalty is incredibly

[00:22:05] high when you have your own

[00:22:08] personal AI that remembers you

[00:22:09] and you can call it a name

[00:22:11] and and like Alfred or Simon

[00:22:13] or justine or whoever and that

[00:22:15] then becomes the name of that

[00:22:17] your your your artificial

[00:22:19] intelligence and it will remember

[00:22:21] you if you say to Alexa my

[00:22:22] favorite color is red

[00:22:25] what car should I what what car

[00:22:27] out of these three should I

[00:22:28] choose Alexa will give you

[00:22:31] a version of Google results as

[00:22:34] a reply similar to almost

[00:22:37] any form of platform that's

[00:22:38] theoretically in a system

[00:22:39] whereas a self it actually

[00:22:41] remembers you and will help you

[00:22:43] and can recall the information

[00:22:45] that you've sent sent to it

[00:22:46] but so the biggest upside is

[00:22:48] the fact that the loyalty is

[00:22:49] extraordinarily high I mean

[00:22:51] self app is actually Google

[00:22:52] without adverts right to some

[00:22:53] extent yeah the but the

[00:22:56] bigger the big even bigger

[00:22:58] upside is that what we're

[00:23:00] proving at the moment is that

[00:23:02] if that engine was the

[00:23:04] underpinning engine on an

[00:23:06] operating system then it's

[00:23:08] likely that your attachment

[00:23:10] to the operating system is

[00:23:12] actually your operating system

[00:23:13] if you like that is very

[00:23:17] likely to have the escape

[00:23:19] velocity from the existing

[00:23:20] OSes like Apple and Google

[00:23:22] and Microsoft and that's

[00:23:24] it's a bold thing to say but

[00:23:26] where the escape velocity will

[00:23:28] come is not when we raise

[00:23:29] 500 million or 2 billion the

[00:23:31] escape velocity will come when

[00:23:34] out of 100 people who use

[00:23:36] the systems that are actually

[00:23:38] their own systems the loyalty

[00:23:40] is in double the high double

[00:23:42] digit percentage and when you

[00:23:44] get that level of loyalty

[00:23:45] and people understanding the

[00:23:46] power that they have literally

[00:23:48] within themselves and their

[00:23:50] self then the traction

[00:23:54] likelihood is far more

[00:23:56] efficient than trying to

[00:23:57] convince people of yet

[00:23:59] another Twitter s social

[00:24:00] network but it's not Twitter

[00:24:02] or yet another Facebook but

[00:24:04] it's not Facebook that isn't

[00:24:05] going to do it and funky

[00:24:07] graphics ain't going to cut it

[00:24:08] giving people the power back

[00:24:11] historically and I mean that

[00:24:12] with all with no uncertainty

[00:24:15] historically when people are

[00:24:17] given the power and can

[00:24:19] collaborate together on mass

[00:24:21] stuff gets overturned

[00:24:22] and whilst I have breath in my

[00:24:24] body that will be the mission

[00:24:26] and even if I get to the

[00:24:27] stage of leaving tools around

[00:24:29] for other people to build on

[00:24:30] and that's as much as I can

[00:24:31] achieve that's enough

[00:24:34] if we can do more than that

[00:24:35] that's a bonus.

[00:24:38] Wow and just listening to you

[00:24:39] that it's incredibly inspiring

[00:24:41] and I'm reminiscent really of

[00:24:42] the original vision of the

[00:24:44] World Wide Web by Tim Berners

[00:24:46] Lee it was one of decentralisation

[00:24:49] and equal access and that vision

[00:24:51] as you've said has been

[00:24:52] compromised over time so I'm

[00:24:54] curious what role do you see

[00:24:55] self playing in helping really

[00:24:57] aligning the web with those

[00:24:58] foundational principles because

[00:25:00] it feels like we've lost our

[00:25:01] way over the last few decades.

[00:25:03] Yeah I think the Tim's

[00:25:07] view was twofold one was

[00:25:10] indeed the a decentralised

[00:25:13] system for the freedom of

[00:25:16] information but let's not

[00:25:19] we not forget that the truth

[00:25:22] of it was to meet demand for

[00:25:24] automating information sharing

[00:25:25] between scientists and

[00:25:27] universities and institutes

[00:25:28] around the world.

[00:25:29] So yes there was an

[00:25:31] ideological view and there was

[00:25:34] a practical requirement.

[00:25:36] I think that what we have to

[00:25:39] be remiss of me not to

[00:25:42] try and manifest what it

[00:25:45] would have looked like if the

[00:25:47] World Wide Web was based

[00:25:50] on our individual sovereignty

[00:25:52] and it's as I say these words

[00:25:56] out loud with a smile the

[00:25:59] challenge is not one of

[00:26:01] ideology I don't find it hard

[00:26:04] to make the case for it from a

[00:26:06] human perspective but the sheer

[00:26:09] adverse view of big tech

[00:26:14] that are trillion dollar

[00:26:15] mark out companies in some

[00:26:17] it's some extent is is so

[00:26:20] opposite and opposite to this

[00:26:23] that the it becomes

[00:26:25] always stay marketing vehicle

[00:26:27] in and of itself.

[00:26:28] And what I mean by that Neil is

[00:26:30] it shouldn't be

[00:26:34] any form of inspiration or

[00:26:36] thought leadership to say that

[00:26:38] hey guys how about we build

[00:26:40] things for the people that

[00:26:41] actually are under control

[00:26:43] by the people.

[00:26:45] Shouldn't be

[00:26:47] shouldn't be anything other

[00:26:48] than well yeah.

[00:26:49] Darn but in fact it's like

[00:26:52] hey guys we're going to build

[00:26:53] something that humans will

[00:26:55] pretty much hate in so as

[00:26:57] user experience but we're going

[00:26:58] to suck them into it because

[00:26:59] basically they're addicted to

[00:27:01] it and we're going to cause

[00:27:02] greater depression and suicide

[00:27:04] rates but we're going to make

[00:27:05] zillions and everyone goes

[00:27:07] yep here's a check for

[00:27:09] billion dollars and so

[00:27:11] it's a strange old world

[00:27:12] that should be that should be

[00:27:14] the kind of eye opening

[00:27:15] eyebrow raising thing that

[00:27:17] people go well hold on a

[00:27:18] minute.

[00:27:19] That's not the way you want

[00:27:20] to run a society.

[00:27:21] That's not future that we

[00:27:22] want but it's the opposite

[00:27:24] of that it's like you come

[00:27:25] up with something that makes

[00:27:26] complete basic human sense

[00:27:28] and everyone says with your

[00:27:29] nuts and then you build

[00:27:31] something that goes against

[00:27:32] human rights and

[00:27:33] and actually screws people's

[00:27:35] lives up and your ability

[00:27:37] to straight.

[00:27:39] It really is and it feels

[00:27:41] like we've almost convinced

[00:27:42] ourselves that the magnificent

[00:27:43] seven in big tech who are

[00:27:45] also currently propping up the

[00:27:46] stock market right now that

[00:27:48] they make billions from

[00:27:49] every click swipe that we

[00:27:50] make and hey that's just the

[00:27:52] way it is and you've

[00:27:53] mentioned the potential

[00:27:54] of for technology structures to

[00:27:56] enable rather than restrict

[00:27:58] freedom.

[00:27:58] I absolutely love that

[00:28:00] line.

[00:28:00] So can you provide any examples

[00:28:02] of how self is is crafting

[00:28:04] such structures particularly

[00:28:05] in enabling users to have

[00:28:06] control and ultimately

[00:28:08] ownership over their data?

[00:28:10] Yeah, I think the starting

[00:28:12] point is that that giving

[00:28:13] people the rights to access

[00:28:15] what's recorded and where

[00:28:16] things sit in the database.

[00:28:18] I mean in self when you

[00:28:19] create an account the the

[00:28:21] there's a preference screen

[00:28:23] which is what your AI has

[00:28:24] remembered and you can then

[00:28:26] change it.

[00:28:27] Now, can you imagine that

[00:28:28] with any of the AI

[00:28:29] if that's your type?

[00:28:31] You imagine going into

[00:28:32] chat, GBT or any of the others

[00:28:34] and be able to see what's

[00:28:35] recorded in the background?

[00:28:36] Imagine?

[00:28:37] Yeah, I should say.

[00:28:38] No.

[00:28:39] Yeah, it's you're not allowed

[00:28:41] to see any of that.

[00:28:42] That's not that's not for you

[00:28:43] but the so it starts

[00:28:46] there, you know, freedom

[00:28:47] to look at what's recorded

[00:28:48] on your database is

[00:28:50] like pretty pretty basic

[00:28:53] but moving forward.

[00:28:54] I think what's going to be

[00:28:56] the most fun is where people

[00:28:57] can see their own neural net

[00:29:00] their digital twin neural net

[00:29:01] to actually look at

[00:29:02] the self brain and see how

[00:29:04] they use it and how

[00:29:07] their brain responds to them.

[00:29:10] And if you imagine that in the

[00:29:11] in the context of an

[00:29:13] what we call entirety

[00:29:15] and it's called entirety

[00:29:16] because because freedom is everything

[00:29:18] in the entirety OS

[00:29:20] be able to visualize

[00:29:22] at a very simple, non-techie

[00:29:24] way how things are linked together

[00:29:27] how your apps are linked together

[00:29:28] and how they operate

[00:29:30] will mean that we get to stage

[00:29:32] without needing to open 16

[00:29:34] browser tabs to

[00:29:35] to organize something or to download

[00:29:37] five different apps that

[00:29:38] evidently have no interest

[00:29:40] in speaking to each other

[00:29:42] in entirety OS

[00:29:43] and the developers SDK

[00:29:45] will have self built in

[00:29:47] but all of your apps

[00:29:48] are automatically linked

[00:29:50] together and also all serving you.

[00:29:52] So that's what I mean

[00:29:53] by freedom in terms of

[00:29:56] freedom of not only data sovereignty

[00:29:57] but freedom of choice and freedom

[00:29:59] of information that's

[00:30:01] freedom of visualizing your information

[00:30:03] and freedom of how things are mapped together.

[00:30:05] And what we have to do is make it

[00:30:07] as easy as humanly possible.

[00:30:09] And that's why just the V1

[00:30:12] of self

[00:30:13] and shows people

[00:30:15] in a like a really basic

[00:30:17] zoomed in way.

[00:30:18] This is what self's recalled

[00:30:20] and it's only

[00:30:21] it's only the first

[00:30:22] hey, you know, we've been

[00:30:23] building for ages but the

[00:30:25] we're now able to

[00:30:26] to offer these things and she

[00:30:28] and human rights starts with our freedom of

[00:30:30] I think a freedom of our self

[00:30:32] and where our information is

[00:30:34] and how it's used.

[00:30:35] Why not be our own control?

[00:30:36] That's what I think.

[00:30:38] William Elliott, it's a perfect moment

[00:30:40] to end on but before we do

[00:30:41] we start at the podcast

[00:30:43] talking about your origin story

[00:30:44] the path that you've been on

[00:30:46] and in a career where

[00:30:48] you've got extensive experience

[00:30:49] advising on change, digital

[00:30:51] transformation, innovation

[00:30:52] and someone that's been

[00:30:54] that's seen the world of tech

[00:30:55] evolved from those early days

[00:30:57] before the worldwide web

[00:30:58] to what it's become now.

[00:31:00] We're now looking towards the future

[00:31:01] things are moving faster than ever

[00:31:03] what emerging trends

[00:31:05] do you think will significantly

[00:31:06] impact the ethical

[00:31:08] technology landscape in the near

[00:31:10] future and how are you

[00:31:11] with self preparing to navigate

[00:31:13] some of these changes that you're

[00:31:14] seeing?

[00:31:15] Sure, I think that

[00:31:16] in very, very quick answers

[00:31:17] that actually because it's

[00:31:18] it's a simple answer

[00:31:19] but I will leave it

[00:31:20] with a listeners to digest

[00:31:21] the granularity of it.

[00:31:23] The

[00:31:25] we are moving toward an even

[00:31:26] more visible crossroads

[00:31:28] between a utopian and dystopian

[00:31:30] outcome

[00:31:31] and I think both will work in

[00:31:32] duality.

[00:31:33] I think we'll continue

[00:31:35] in the big tech direction

[00:31:36] of the magnificent seven

[00:31:37] and I think that offerings

[00:31:39] like what I'm working with

[00:31:41] and I hope millions more

[00:31:43] offerings will show

[00:31:45] the alternative path

[00:31:47] and that the more visible

[00:31:50] that alternative path gets

[00:31:52] the more opportunities there

[00:31:53] will be for more firms

[00:31:56] and organizations and entrepreneurs

[00:31:57] to innovate in that space.

[00:31:59] So that's what I suspect

[00:32:00] future looks like

[00:32:01] and how we're going to navigate

[00:32:03] that is make that path

[00:32:04] as blatantly clear as possible

[00:32:06] and promote that path

[00:32:08] and celebrate the path

[00:32:09] that others are on and try

[00:32:11] and stop the or reduce

[00:32:13] the abuse of the terms

[00:32:14] inside that path.

[00:32:15] Like for instance,

[00:32:17] we're an ethical tech company

[00:32:18] which people use

[00:32:19] without actually having ethical

[00:32:21] or moral principles

[00:32:22] and in every single decision

[00:32:23] making or people say

[00:32:25] decentralization like for instance,

[00:32:26] a theorem which is as

[00:32:28] central as centralized

[00:32:29] as an as a back.

[00:32:31] So the truth

[00:32:33] of the matter is the words

[00:32:34] decentralization ethics

[00:32:37] even the word freedom

[00:32:38] even the word rights

[00:32:39] corporate social responsibility

[00:32:42] philanthropy corporate giving

[00:32:45] these are all abuse terms.

[00:32:46] These these are these are said

[00:32:48] because it makes people happy

[00:32:51] and they're not actually done

[00:32:53] to their actual full

[00:32:55] and ontological extent.

[00:32:57] And as we move forward,

[00:32:59] we will notice and be able

[00:33:00] to call out those BS terms

[00:33:03] in buzzwords and greenwashing

[00:33:05] onward and we'll start

[00:33:07] to see what it truly really means.

[00:33:09] And I'm I'm really, really happy

[00:33:11] that I'm able to help

[00:33:14] navigate some of that.

[00:33:15] And I'm hoping that

[00:33:16] we're part of the waves

[00:33:18] and movement of philosophical

[00:33:20] revolution in light

[00:33:21] where we show an option

[00:33:24] to the what I think is a brainwashed

[00:33:27] dystopian outcome future.

[00:33:29] And I'm happy to be where we are.

[00:33:32] Well, I cannot thank you enough

[00:33:33] for spending your little time with me today.

[00:33:35] Sharing your insights

[00:33:36] with everyone listening

[00:33:37] and you didn't mention

[00:33:38] the word manifest a few moments ago.

[00:33:40] So as a fellow subscriber

[00:33:42] to the law of attraction,

[00:33:43] I'm going to see if there's

[00:33:44] something that we can do for you now,

[00:33:46] because some of the biggest names

[00:33:47] in business, VC, funding and tech

[00:33:49] have either been guests

[00:33:50] or may even listen to this podcast.

[00:33:52] So is there a person

[00:33:53] you'd love to have a breakfast or lunch with?

[00:33:56] And who would that person be?

[00:33:57] And why?

[00:33:58] Because he or she might just

[00:33:59] be listening to this episode today.

[00:34:01] So let's see what we can manifest together.

[00:34:03] But who would it be?

[00:34:05] I don't know their name

[00:34:07] or their names

[00:34:08] and but whoever it is

[00:34:12] that someone may have listened to this and gone.

[00:34:16] I or we would love to back

[00:34:20] something that is building the alternative bar

[00:34:24] and please, please,

[00:34:28] please do get in touch because

[00:34:30] it is that the really

[00:34:33] collaborating with people

[00:34:34] who want to be part of building a future

[00:34:37] and are not thinking, well,

[00:34:39] where we want the next unicorn

[00:34:41] story that that

[00:34:44] and resonate with this manifesto.

[00:34:47] And I mean, you can go to self.at for a manifesto.

[00:34:50] You can even search on your favorite search engines,

[00:34:53] the word pursuit of human freedom.

[00:34:55] And then my name Jonathan Macdulles

[00:34:56] and you can read even more of my back story

[00:34:58] of whatever results you click on

[00:35:01] in pursuit of human freedom.

[00:35:03] People who resonate with that

[00:35:05] you'll know if it's you.

[00:35:06] If you're listening to this and go

[00:35:08] stop the podcast, I need to contact immediately.

[00:35:11] It's just J at self.at and do it.

[00:35:15] And yeah, if it doesn't resonate, then

[00:35:17] then I wish the other path all the best.

[00:35:20] But if it does, then, well, Neil,

[00:35:22] if you and I have managed to manifest that,

[00:35:25] then then it will be worth its weight in gold

[00:35:27] and much appreciated.

[00:35:28] You'll be doing the right thing for humans.

[00:35:31] I think that's a beautiful moment to end on.

[00:35:33] So I will throw that out into the universe,

[00:35:35] into the ether. Let's see what we can manifest there.

[00:35:37] I'll also add links to everything you mentioned there

[00:35:40] just so people can find out anything

[00:35:42] that they need more easily.

[00:35:44] And there's so many big things on your site there

[00:35:46] from those six commitments, make decisions

[00:35:48] that are in accordance with human rights

[00:35:51] to not cause or enable harm while upholding those rights

[00:35:54] and able people to have control

[00:35:56] and ownership of their own data and decide how it's used.

[00:35:59] It is so straightforward, as you said,

[00:36:02] but it seems that we have lost our way

[00:36:03] and gone completely in the wrong direction.

[00:36:06] But we are approaching those crossroads.

[00:36:08] So for anyone listening,

[00:36:09] I do words that they check you out

[00:36:11] and maybe be a part of that movement too,

[00:36:13] but more than anything,

[00:36:14] just thank you for sharing your story today.

[00:36:16] Thanks Neil, thanks for having me, Meg.

[00:36:18] Reflecting on my conversation with Jonathan,

[00:36:21] I think it's clear that the intersection

[00:36:22] of technology and ethics,

[00:36:25] it presents both a formidable challenge

[00:36:27] and also a beacon of hope for the future.

[00:36:31] And Jonathan's commitment to reversing the power

[00:36:33] of dynamics of big tech

[00:36:35] and championing user privacy

[00:36:37] and control through self

[00:36:39] is a testament to the possibility

[00:36:41] of a utopian tech future.

[00:36:43] I've said many times on this podcast,

[00:36:45] how many tech or science fiction films

[00:36:47] have you seen that show a positive future?

[00:36:51] If you can think of one,

[00:36:52] send me an email now, techbloggerironoutlook.com.

[00:36:55] I'd love for you to share them

[00:36:56] because most films always show the dystopian side

[00:37:00] and we need more optimism.

[00:37:02] So amid the hurdles of fundraising

[00:37:04] and the pervasive pursuit of profit over principles,

[00:37:07] Jonathan's dedication to an ethical alternative path.

[00:37:12] For me, it illuminates a vital role

[00:37:14] of human rights in shaping technology.

[00:37:17] And as we all ponder the crossroads

[00:37:19] between dystopian and utopian tech futures,

[00:37:23] Jonathan's insights compel me

[00:37:25] to consider our role in this narrative.

[00:37:28] So how are we going to contribute

[00:37:30] to fostering an ethical technological landscape?

[00:37:33] What steps can we take to ensure

[00:37:35] that technology amplifies

[00:37:37] rather than undermines our freedoms?

[00:37:40] Over to you, email me, techbloggerironoutlook.com,

[00:37:43] Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, just at Antony or C Hughes.

[00:37:47] I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.

[00:37:49] But as we close this chapter of our discussion,

[00:37:51] let's carry forward the conversation

[00:37:53] on ethical technology and its profound impact on our lives.

[00:37:57] What actions will you take

[00:37:59] to support a future where technology

[00:38:02] upholds our dignity and our rights?

[00:38:05] So much to think about,

[00:38:06] and you've got a few hours to think about that

[00:38:08] and let me know your thoughts.

[00:38:10] But other than that, I'll return again tomorrow

[00:38:11] with another topic to keep you thinking

[00:38:14] and keep that curiosity alive.

[00:38:16] But thank you for listening today

[00:38:18] and until next time, don't be a stranger.