2918: Exploring Space with BAE Systems: The Azalea Project

[00:00:00] How do space strategy and market development shape the future of defence and civil innovation?

[00:00:08] Well today I've got the pleasure of diving into this fascinating topic with Liz Seward,

[00:00:14] Head of Space Strategy and Market Development at BAE Systems.

[00:00:19] With over 20 years experience in the space sector, Elizabeth has played pivotal roles

[00:00:25] in projects ranging from ExoMars rover study to a mission aimed at returning a sample

[00:00:31] from an asteroid.

[00:00:33] Incredibly exciting and cool stuff isn't it?

[00:00:35] And she also brings a wealth of knowledge from her time at Airbus Defence, not to mention

[00:00:40] her extensive involvement with the International Astronautical Federation.

[00:00:45] Great scotch!

[00:00:47] So in our conversation today we're going to explore the role of space in defence, the

[00:00:52] critical importance of Earth observation and how near real-time intelligence is becoming

[00:00:57] a game changer for multi-domain operations.

[00:01:00] And we'll also dive into BAE's innovative Azalea project which leverages machine learning

[00:01:06] for enhanced data analytics and discuss the implications of dual use space capabilities

[00:01:13] for the UK and beyond.

[00:01:16] But most excitingly of all we're also going to touch on the urgent need for a talent

[00:01:22] renaissance in the space age, all of which is going to be highlighted by BAE's launch

[00:01:28] of the UK's first ever Space Engineering Apprenticeship Programme.

[00:01:33] How cool is that?

[00:01:34] So buckle up and hold on tight as I beam your ears all the way to the UK where you can join

[00:01:39] me in embarking on this journey with Liz to understand how space technology is transforming

[00:01:46] our world and also what the future holds for this exciting field.

[00:01:52] So a massive warm welcome to the show Liz.

[00:01:54] Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

[00:01:58] Hi, thank you very much.

[00:02:00] I'm Liz Simard.

[00:02:01] I work for BAE Systems as their Head of Space Strategy.

[00:02:05] I joined the company two years ago now to help shape the future of where we're going

[00:02:11] in the space industry.

[00:02:13] BAE Systems is a big defence company but hasn't been active in the space sector for about

[00:02:19] the last 20 years in fact, in a major way.

[00:02:22] And soon as you mentioned the word space I feel like a 12 year old boy again all of a

[00:02:26] sudden full of wonder.

[00:02:28] So just to set the scene for our conversation today because I know when we mention space

[00:02:33] it brings up so many different things for so many different people.

[00:02:37] So can you tell everyone listening a little bit more about the role of space in defence

[00:02:40] and indeed the need for Earth observation and real-time intelligence for multi-domain

[00:02:46] operations because we're all guilty of looking up at the skies and wondering what's going

[00:02:51] on up there.

[00:02:52] But we don't often think about looking back down on the Earth and some of the great work

[00:02:57] that people are doing and the technology that they're using to do that.

[00:03:00] We don't hear about that very much, do we?

[00:03:03] We use space so much in everyday life and as you said, looking down is that huge benefit

[00:03:10] we get from using satellites and using spacecraft.

[00:03:14] We can put a satellite up into orbit and depending on how you launch it, where you launch it,

[00:03:20] you can either find the right height, basically the right orbit so that you have your satellite

[00:03:27] hovering over the equator.

[00:03:29] It's how all satellite TV works.

[00:03:32] The dish points in one direction on the side of your house and it never has to move because

[00:03:36] the satellite in effect hangs in the sky above it.

[00:03:39] You can either get that on instant view but that's quite far away or we have what we call

[00:03:44] low Earth orbiting satellites.

[00:03:46] They're much closer in and they go around the Earth about once every 90 minutes.

[00:03:51] If you are looking up and stargazing, those are what you see going overhead.

[00:03:55] If you see a star that moves at a constant speed across the sky, it's not a star, it

[00:03:59] will be a satellite.

[00:04:00] What that does is it gives us this global picture very rapidly so you can see the whole world

[00:04:06] in a couple of days.

[00:04:07] If you put more satellites up, you can get that time down so that you can be constantly

[00:04:13] looking at what's going on below.

[00:04:15] We've used it for years and years and years for weather forecasting and for the last couple

[00:04:20] of decades it's been used for mapping, for Earth observation as you said, for communications

[00:04:26] and connectivity.

[00:04:27] There's a heap of activities that we use space for and satellites for.

[00:04:35] As you say, it's very exciting.

[00:04:37] It gives a view you can't get anywhere else and it works for defence in being able to

[00:04:45] see over the hill, the horizon, keeping constant monitoring.

[00:04:50] It's both looking at what people are doing, it's using radar to see through clouds and

[00:04:55] see pictures of the Earth at night time.

[00:04:58] You can pick up different signals from places and see what's happening.

[00:05:04] We use it for weather forecasting, we use it for communications and connectivity.

[00:05:09] And so yeah, there's an awful lot we use space for today.

[00:05:13] We really do and I know we're coming up to the Olympic Games.

[00:05:17] I think it was the 1964 Olympic Games where satellite first came and allowed people to

[00:05:24] see events as they happened all around the world at the same time.

[00:05:28] It's phenomenal, isn't it?

[00:05:29] We do take a lot of that for granted sometimes, I think, as well as things like satellite

[00:05:33] navigation, of course.

[00:05:34] Yes, I mean we call it satnav but we don't always remember that it stands for satellite

[00:05:40] navigation and you are connecting to satellites in the sky as you do it.

[00:05:44] And as for yourselves at BAE Systems, how are you integrating space technology into

[00:05:49] things like defence strategies?

[00:05:51] Is there anything you can share around them?

[00:05:53] As you say, our defence company have been working in defence for the UK and internationally

[00:05:59] for a very long time.

[00:06:01] We have been doing some space activities over that time.

[00:06:05] We use our communications knowledge and expertise.

[00:06:09] And one of the originator companies of BAE Systems was in fact, Marconi, the man that

[00:06:15] invented the radio.

[00:06:16] So we've got some really specialist technologies in things like waveforms, electronics, antennas

[00:06:22] and digital signal processing.

[00:06:24] We use that in various ways.

[00:06:27] We actually build the deep space modem for the European Space Agency that controls their

[00:06:33] satellites around other planets and have been doing that for a long time.

[00:06:38] And then we've expanded that knowledge out into some of our new programs.

[00:06:44] So we've got something called Azalea, I think we'll talk about it a bit more, and

[00:06:49] are building some satellites around that.

[00:06:51] We're also connecting into other bits of the company, as you said.

[00:06:58] Where can we bring those space technologies and capabilities into some of the defence

[00:07:02] work that we're doing?

[00:07:04] A lot of it is around, we call it ISR, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, those global

[00:07:11] images, that global knowledge that we can then feed into existing technologies and existing

[00:07:16] systems.

[00:07:17] Some of it is more of a backup.

[00:07:19] When you use a satellite, you're on the battlefield to provide connections and connectivity if

[00:07:26] you lose something else.

[00:07:28] So there's a lot of places where it fits and a lot of things that we can do.

[00:07:34] Before you came on the podcast, I was doing a little research on some of the work that

[00:07:38] you're doing.

[00:07:39] And one of the things that stood out to me was the Azalea project, which you mentioned

[00:07:43] a few moments ago.

[00:07:45] It appears to be a significant advancement in space technology, but for people listening

[00:07:50] that have not heard of it, can you just explain its multi-sensor capabilities and how machine

[00:07:54] learning, we've done well to get this far into a tech podcast without mentioning machine

[00:07:58] learning, but also how machine learning is employed to enhance data analytics with that

[00:08:03] too?

[00:08:04] So what we've done is we've taken something that we do for our customers in ground-based

[00:08:11] comms and connectivity.

[00:08:12] And when we looked at how can we take this really interesting piece of kit, which is our

[00:08:17] software-defined radio, a radio you can reprogram, combined it with a data processor, then put

[00:08:25] it up in orbit and add in other sensors and technologies.

[00:08:29] And so our Azalea Cluster 1 that we're building now will launch next year.

[00:08:36] It has some radio frequency sensors and we're combining it with a SAR, a synthetic aperture

[00:08:42] radar and our unit, our software-defined radio and data processor.

[00:08:51] What this means is you can take a radio capture and a radar image and then use that onboard

[00:08:59] processing to do immediate analysis, to find out information rather than just send the

[00:09:07] raw data back to be processed.

[00:09:10] And the aim is to really reduce that time it takes to get information that's useful

[00:09:16] to an operator and really speed up that processing chain that we have.

[00:09:25] The longest ambition is to add in even more sensors and combine it with optical pictures,

[00:09:31] hyperspectral infrared, and then really get that sort of very rich picture, but much faster

[00:09:37] than we do today.

[00:09:38] There's some amazing capabilities that exist already in terms of layering this different

[00:09:43] data.

[00:09:44] And then what we're doing is really reducing the time that you do that with machine learning,

[00:09:50] onboard processing on the satellite so that you can ping down that first information much,

[00:09:55] much quicker.

[00:09:56] And with the continuous evolution of space technologies, I'm curious, how does BAE Systems

[00:10:04] envision the future of innovation in space?

[00:10:07] And when I say that, I mean specifically, how can UK leverage dual use of space capabilities

[00:10:13] for both civilian and defence purposes too?

[00:10:16] Because there's so much different aspects to this, isn't there?

[00:10:20] Yes, there is.

[00:10:21] Dual use is a topic that we're hearing a lot about.

[00:10:24] It's something that we have highlighted as one of those defence technologies to watch.

[00:10:30] It's something that, it ought to be simple.

[00:10:33] It's can you use the same system for defence and civil purposes?

[00:10:37] But in fact, it's actually much harder to do in practice, not really for the space-based

[00:10:41] reasons.

[00:10:43] It's harder because in many countries, the defence needs and the civil needs are slightly

[00:10:49] different enough to make having the same system not quite meet either need.

[00:10:55] They also have very different security requirements, as you can imagine.

[00:11:01] You need that very clear assurance of your data and that knowledge that what you see

[00:11:08] or infer is true in the defence world in a way that maybe you could be a bit more flexible

[00:11:14] in a civil world.

[00:11:15] They often have different timeliness needs as well.

[00:11:20] And they often have different budgets.

[00:11:21] Some of it comes down to the very simple politics of who can pay for what and how can you combine

[00:11:27] things together?

[00:11:28] But we are seeing lots of those problems being solved.

[00:11:33] And we are seeing that with the evolving systems, because we can reprogram what they do, you

[00:11:42] can meet different needs at different times and you can have that dual use aspect.

[00:11:47] We also have the ability to put security in some parts of a system and not in others so

[00:11:53] that you can have different customers using the same system meeting all of their needs.

[00:12:00] And so we are moving much more into this dual use world.

[00:12:03] Lots of this capability is new or is at least new in space.

[00:12:06] And so that's where some of that innovation comes in, doing it differently, adapting and

[00:12:11] being able to reprogram satellites on orbit.

[00:12:14] So using those software defined radios to change what something sees or listens to and

[00:12:21] how it works is really changing how we use satellites for this.

[00:12:28] And another thing that stood out for me was the concept of a talent renaissance.

[00:12:32] It feels like a real transformative shift that's occurring in the industry.

[00:12:37] On that side of things, can I ask what prompted BAE Systems to launch the UK's first ever

[00:12:42] space apprenticeship?

[00:12:43] Sounds incredibly cool.

[00:12:45] And also, what unique opportunities does that programme offer to participants?

[00:12:52] The space apprenticeship is very exciting indeed.

[00:12:55] So we'll have the first cohort arriving later this year.

[00:12:58] And it's a way to get a degree in space engineering without going to university.

[00:13:06] But by doing it through on the job learning, working at a company, but being released to

[00:13:12] university. So our scheme is done with the University of Portsmouth.

[00:13:17] And so you do a part time degree and part time working.

[00:13:21] The benefit and the reason that we're very passionate about it is people learn in very

[00:13:26] different ways. And so for those people that really hands on seeing the application of what

[00:13:33] you're learning as to learning it.

[00:13:35] And those are those people that really benefit from an apprenticeship.

[00:13:39] And as a company, we have an awful lot of apprentices.

[00:13:43] I think the number was over 4000.

[00:13:45] So it's something that we're really passionate and proud that we do well.

[00:13:50] We're doing it because there are not enough engineers being trained at the minute to meet

[00:13:57] the needs of the nation across all sectors.

[00:14:00] And and even in space, lots of people enjoy working in space because, as you say, it's very

[00:14:06] exciting. We still don't have enough people in the industry.

[00:14:09] So anything we can do to bring more people in to get more people sort of excited and

[00:14:16] working in space, then that's something that we need to do.

[00:14:19] 100 percent. And I will be asking you for where people can find out more information about

[00:14:24] that. You can only improve what you measure there, of course.

[00:14:29] So how does BAE Systems measure the success of its space projects like Azalea in terms of

[00:14:35] technological achievements and contributions to the UK defence capabilities?

[00:14:40] In many different ways.

[00:14:42] Some of the success is do we launch and does it work?

[00:14:45] The very basics.

[00:14:47] But really, it is are we delivering for our customers?

[00:14:51] If we can find something that the customer doesn't have but needs and give it to them.

[00:15:01] And our key customer as a company is the UK.

[00:15:05] We're very proud to be a British company and we do a lot of work with the UK and UK

[00:15:11] government. And so if we can provide something for the UK and UK citizens that is a step

[00:15:18] change and something different that they need, then that's a huge success for us.

[00:15:24] And then beyond that, we have an international footprint.

[00:15:28] We work in some really wonderful countries.

[00:15:31] And so we then look at can we use that same system and deliver internationally as well?

[00:15:37] So that's our main success is can we give our customers something that they don't have yet

[00:15:45] or today and that they really need?

[00:15:47] And if we were to zoom out for a moment, look at that broader space industry that we're

[00:15:52] talking about today.

[00:15:53] What would you say are the main technological or regulatory hurdles that you believe might

[00:15:58] need to be addressed before you can accelerate innovation in space?

[00:16:02] Because again, it's a very complex landscape, is it?

[00:16:05] It is indeed.

[00:16:06] I mean, the regulatory side would take up a whole other podcast.

[00:16:10] We're doing new things in space all the time.

[00:16:13] We're seeing commercial space stations being designed, people bringing back things that

[00:16:20] have been built in space.

[00:16:21] There are companies looking at asteroid mining.

[00:16:25] We're looking at reprogrammable satellites.

[00:16:27] There's so many changes happening that the regulation is really having to run fast to

[00:16:34] keep up. And so the UK as a country and through the Space Agency and other work we're doing

[00:16:41] is working really hard to make sure that they have all that right regulatory frameworks in

[00:16:46] place to allow all of this innovation to happen, but in a safe way.

[00:16:50] So that it's also monitored as well.

[00:16:53] And that's a very careful balancing act.

[00:16:56] And we're really pleased that we've got some experts within the organisation who are

[00:17:00] working on different programmes and supporting the government around this.

[00:17:06] And one topic that's key is around space sustainability and space debris and making sure

[00:17:15] that we are responsible contractors and that we are not going to pollute the space

[00:17:20] environment because we've got to make sure that it remains safe for many years to come.

[00:17:26] And we've got one of our lawyers, James Pearson, is part of the UK programme around that

[00:17:33] looking at how can we make sure that everybody has to meet certain standards so that we can

[00:17:38] keep space safe for everybody to use.

[00:17:42] And then the technology to accelerate.

[00:17:47] Space is a really interesting place in that because there's no maintenance possible, once

[00:17:53] you launch something or launch a satellite, that's it.

[00:17:57] It has to work and it has to work for however long the lifetime of the satellite is, which

[00:18:01] can vary from a couple of years to 20 or 25 with absolutely no maintenance.

[00:18:08] And so we as an industry are sometimes very reticent about changing anything.

[00:18:16] If it has on orbit heritage, if it has space qualified parts, you want to keep them.

[00:18:23] And at the same time, we really want to advance and change and put new innovation up.

[00:18:28] So some things will adapt quite fast and some things will adapt quite slow.

[00:18:32] And that's a really careful balancing act when it comes to new space projects.

[00:18:38] And if we were to look further into the future, especially for young people listening to our

[00:18:42] conversation, maybe they're feeling inspired, listening to our conversation, opening their

[00:18:46] minds to new job roles are beginning to emerge.

[00:18:49] Are there any particular roles that you see emerging?

[00:18:53] Do you see emerging space technologies playing in everyday life and indeed broader societal

[00:18:59] challenges as well?

[00:19:00] There are so many that it's hard to list them all, but I'll pull out a few.

[00:19:05] You mentioned GPS and we have the European system, Galileo and many others.

[00:19:13] And that permeates daily life, not just in satellite navigation and phone and tracking

[00:19:21] everything, but actually the timing signal is used for things like banking.

[00:19:26] And every time you use a cash machine, for instance, it picks up something from the GPS

[00:19:32] signal. We are seeing new connectivity systems come on board.

[00:19:39] You've got Elon Musk's Starlink, Amazon are designing a system.

[00:19:44] The UK has one where they're all providing Internet connectivity in a way that didn't

[00:19:50] exist before, which is going to connect people around the world in a way that hasn't

[00:19:55] happened up until now.

[00:19:58] And it is allowing some countries even to leapfrog whole technologies almost.

[00:20:04] So to get that constant communication in the past, we had to cover the UK in copper

[00:20:12] wiring for phones.

[00:20:14] But countries don't have to do that anymore.

[00:20:16] They can go straight to satellite technology.

[00:20:19] And so there's really a space for with these technologies that are being developed.

[00:20:24] What else can you do with them that hasn't been thought of today?

[00:20:29] We've seen a surge in telemedicine.

[00:20:32] And if you can have that live connection that you know is very stable, you can talk to

[00:20:38] people in other parts of the world.

[00:20:39] You can share their information.

[00:20:41] You can help do operations differently.

[00:20:43] But really, the roles that are emerging that are exciting are the ones that we haven't

[00:20:51] thought of yet.

[00:20:52] It's the what can you do with all of this new technology that can benefit society?

[00:20:59] And hopefully there's some really exciting things out there.

[00:21:02] I think that's a powerful moment to end on.

[00:21:04] But before I do, I cannot thank you enough for coming on here, taking the time to share

[00:21:09] your insights and give us a real different vantage point into space technology.

[00:21:15] But I would say if there's something we can do for you now, because some of the biggest

[00:21:18] names in business VC funding and tech have either been guests or maybe even listened to

[00:21:22] this podcast. If there is one person that you'd love to have a private breakfast or lunch

[00:21:28] with, who would it be and why?

[00:21:29] He or she might just be listening to this.

[00:21:32] So let's see what we can manifest together.

[00:21:34] But who would he be?

[00:21:36] Well, this is a really interesting one to think about because so many names sort of

[00:21:40] popped into my head.

[00:21:42] But actually one that stood out was Peter DeMandis, who founded the XPRIZE and has done

[00:21:51] a lot around space exploration and advances in the US.

[00:21:56] And I picked him because I have met him before, but a long time ago.

[00:22:01] And as a student, I did a summer placement and I worked supporting a startup company he

[00:22:09] had way before its time.

[00:22:12] That sadly, the funding didn't work out.

[00:22:16] But things have changed so much and over the, gosh, more than 20 years since I worked for

[00:22:24] him that I would be fascinating to meet up again and see what things have changed and

[00:22:29] also to sort of learn some of his tips and tricks because he's done some very impressive

[00:22:32] things across the industry.

[00:22:34] So, yeah, Peter DeMandis would be my lunch choice.

[00:22:38] Well, fantastic answer.

[00:22:39] I will add that we'll throw it out into the ether, into the universe.

[00:22:43] Let's see what we could make happen there.

[00:22:45] And for anyone listening just wanting to find out more information about some of the space

[00:22:49] projects that we were talking about, that incredibly cool space apprenticeship or just

[00:22:54] finding out more information online or connecting with your team, where would you like to

[00:22:57] point everyone listening?

[00:22:59] So we have a great website if you go to the basystems.com and if you look up Space

[00:23:06] Insights, we do do a regular newsletter on all the things that we're doing on space.

[00:23:12] Also on there, you can find details of the space apprenticeships and how to apply.

[00:23:17] And then our LinkedIn presence has a lot of information as well.

[00:23:21] And we post quite a lot there.

[00:23:23] Fantastic. Well, I'll get that link added so people can find you nice and easily.

[00:23:27] And I think we covered so much in a short amount of time today from the role of space in

[00:23:31] defence, the need for Earth observation and real or near real-time intelligence for

[00:23:36] multi-domain operations.

[00:23:38] But also exploring what that means for the future of innovation in space and how here in

[00:23:42] the UK you can exploit dual use capability and not to mention finishing on that first

[00:23:48] ever space apprenticeship, which I'll be checking out in a moment, even though I'm way too

[00:23:52] old for it now. But thanks so much for sharing that with me today.

[00:23:55] You're very welcome. And you're never too old to join the space industry, although maybe not as

[00:24:00] an apprentice. But we welcome people from all walks of life.

[00:24:03] So absolutely anybody listening out there who wants a career in space, please do have a

[00:24:08] look and see what you might do.

[00:24:11] So as we conclude our discussion with Liz today, I think it's clear that the future of space

[00:24:17] and strategy and market development collectively holds immense promise and potential.

[00:24:23] From that groundbreaking Azalea project to the launch of the UK's first space engineering

[00:24:29] apprenticeship, it feels like BAE Systems is at the forefront of innovation in the space

[00:24:34] sector. And I think Liz's insights into the dual use capabilities of space technology, along

[00:24:41] with the critical need for Earth observation, I think it really painted a vivid picture of how

[00:24:46] space will continue to impact both defence and the civilian domains.

[00:24:53] But I want to hear from you. What excites you about the advancements in space technology?

[00:24:57] How do you see the role of space evolving over the next decade?

[00:25:02] Please email me now, techblogwriteratoutlook.com.

[00:25:06] But that's it. Time for me to beam myself out of here.

[00:25:09] So thank you for tuning in.

[00:25:10] Remember, stay curious about the cosmos and the endless possibilities of the old.

[00:25:16] But until next time, keep looking and imagining a new future of space.

[00:25:22] But thank you for listening as always.

[00:25:24] And until next time, don't be a stranger.