3002: EY's Take on AI and the Evolution of Global Tax Regulations

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the Tech Talks Daily Podcast. Today I'm joined by Marna Ricker, she's the

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Global Vice Chair of Tax at EY. We're going to discuss how AI and generative AI is already

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: reshaping the landscape for tax professionals. And we're not just talking about the future,

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to share real world stories today of the impact that this technology

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: is having on operations around the world. And as we move through an era where data is king,

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I also want to uncover how initiatives like EY Tax Copilot is not just innovative but also

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: paving the way for a new approach in the tax domain. And yes it's all about working

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: smarter not harder so Marna is going to share her insights on the importance of a

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: human-centred approach to adopting these technologies and emphasising things like

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: change management and leadership that includes everyone.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Delivering daily content to 140,000 of you wonderful monthly listeners across the globe

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[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: moment you've been waiting for. It's time to welcome my guest onto the show. This is one of

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: those episodes that has it all. So please buckle up and hold on tight because I'm going

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: to beam your ears all the way to the US where my guest is waiting to join me today.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So a massive warm welcome to the show, Mara. Can you tell everyone listening a little about

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: who you are and what you do? Yeah, thank you for having me, Neil. I appreciate it. I am

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the Global Vice Chair of Tax for EY and I have the privilege of overseeing all aspects of our

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: strategy, its offerings, our client service and for the tax service line. And I get the

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: worldwide to the forefront every year in our delivering our financial results. So it's an

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: awesome team of tax law and people advisory service professionals and really a connected

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: landscape of tax disciplines. And our ambition and mission is to help organisations obviously

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: navigate an extraordinary area of ever changing tax landscape. And to do that, frankly,

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: a really dynamic technology and AI world that we're all living in. So I get to lead a tax

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: executive committee and I sit on our highest ranking body at EY, which is our global executive

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: committee. So I'm also personally, I have a passion around junior achievement and financial

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: literacy. And then I also sit on the Dean's Advisory Council for my alma mater, which is

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Ohio State at the Fisher College of Business. So those are the things I love to do in my

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: charitable giving in my free time. And then I have two boys, two very active boys and an

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: awesome husband and enjoy just being outside on the lake. We were just talking about the water

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and the weather and I live in the great state of Minnesota. That's who I am and what I get to

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: do personally and professionally. I absolutely love that. And I think when we're talking

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: about things like tax and financial literacy, it can be quite a dry subject, but your passion

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: for this really shines through in your intro alone now. Is it something that's always been

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: with you? It has, ironically. So I'm in accounting and finance by background and

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: in college and then went to law school. And my first year I was like,

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know about this. And then I got to take my first tax class and I really fell in

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: love with it. So it was a combination of the law and the numbers. And so that's really,

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what drew me to it. And then this sort of representation, taxation without

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: representation, right? You sort of go to all that and the social good that comes from tax.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think the law of the law and the numbers is what created passion. It's ever

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: changing. I love the challenge of change. And so it's just been a great career. It's really

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: fun to help obviously tax administrations issue good policy and then also to obviously work

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: with corporations on how they obviously are focused on contributing to great compliance.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And then obviously helping their organizations make really good solid capital decisions

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and contribute to the growth of the business. So anyway, I do have a passion on both sides.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's one of the reasons I was excited to have you on the podcast today because

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: every single day I'd take a different area of business or our life, our world or

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: technology and try and demystify or understand how technology is solving real world problems.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So when we talk about financial literacy and tax and EY, I don't think we automatically assume

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: AI. AI is almost a separate conversation at the moment. There's a lot of excitement,

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of hype, but also a lot of confusion about what does this mean for me? What does

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: this mean for my business? What problems are we solving? What business value are we generating?

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've got to ask you someone that's got such a great vantage point. You were talking

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: about a team of 76,000 people there. How do you see something like generative AI and other

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: emerging technologies reshaping that landscape for tax professionals? Are there any pitfalls

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that they should be aware of before diving headfirst into this transformation?

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a great question. Look, I really, at the end of the day,

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the tax department writing tax overall, whether that's on the administration side or

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly on the corporate side, data at the lowest level. If you think about it,

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: right? You're talking about ultimately taxing the lowest level transactional data.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is the heart of where you apply AI, generative AI in particular. So all the things

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you do around data. It's really a game changer from a tax administration perspective and

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly a corporate perspective. There is so much we're doing already around applying

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: generative AI to data. So if you think about it, just think about how much more data that

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: we're doing than even just a decade ago, 50 times more data we have and that amount is

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: supposed to double over the next 18 months by the end of 2025. So if you think about

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: a typical tax department, just to give you perspective, we have our CFR, we do a tax,

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: finance and operate survey every year and we estimate between 40 and 70% of the tax

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: department's time is spent on just manipulating and gathering data. So think about the

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: ability to apply generative AI to that. And we're seeing even you've had to think about

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: things like Microsoft Copilot, we're seeing basic productivity gains on the use of Copilot

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: up to 10 to 14 hours a week. So just think about that. Now you asked me a question

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: about pitfalls. So you talk about pitfalls in particular and what does that look like?

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And what do you want to be thinking about that? And so you really need to understand

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: use cases. Like what do you really want to be applying the technology to? And so you

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: can start with really simple things like, again, just simple processes that you want to apply it

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: to. But you just want to jump in. You want to get in there and you want to make sure

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: you're training your people on how to use the tools and start with some really simple

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: things. So you want to get in the game would be the way I'd say it.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And another thing I've been reading a lot about, and as I said each day,

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I like to try and demystify a particular area or shine a light on a topic. And that is the

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: technology trap. So just to bring that to life, can you share an example of how a

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: technology trap that tax professionals might fall into get distracted by that shiny new

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: technology? They fall into this trap and also how they can avoid it?

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's it's a great question. Like I said, I think embracing it would be

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: number one and could be any, it could be your personal life if you want to learn certainly.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And but professionally, I think the number one thing you're going to want to do is just

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: jump in and start to explore new technologies. Otherwise you're going to fall behind, right?

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a really, really important thing. I think second is you're going to

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: want to have a strategic evaluation of what you want to use. And so it's interesting.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: There's this data out there on one of the CEO surveys we did. 99% of CEOs are planning

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to invest in generative AI, but only two thirds or two thirds actually admit to not having

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: perfect path or a right path. And so that's kind of going to be the inner process around

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: generative AI. And so for tech professionals, from my perspective, is like I said, I'd start

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: with something simpler, something easy, a simple process that you're going through.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And like I said, I generally would do that around data. You're going to want to be very

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: collaborative with your CIO and your CTO, right? Your obviously technology piece of your

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: organization and making sure you're aligned with the wider organizational technology strategy.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So third, from my perspective is that data, data, data. I can't say that enough, right?

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that is really the heart of what tax departments are focused on. And so you're

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: going to want to make sure you're standardizing your data, you're cleansing your data. You've

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: got great data that you can start to work with. And we're seeing that a lot on the tax

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: administration side. They're really focused on the data aspect in element two and are

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: really focused on real time and real time reporting and then real time auditing as well

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that we can all get current. So I think those would be my three pieces of advice or, you know,

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunity and pitfall. And I think I'm not speaking out a term here if I was to say that

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: tax departments as a rule are, let's say risk averse. So what strategies do you recommend

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: for tax professionals to find that balance between that need for technological innovation,

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: not getting left behind with that risk of overreliance on new technologies?

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Anything you can share around them? Yeah, it's a great one. You're

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: spot on. I think it's, I don't know about risk aversion. I don't know whether I put

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: us in that bucket or not. We may be classified that way but I'm not sure I put us there.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're spot on in that it's probably far more of a cultural shift or a human shift

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and an acceptance to be curious and to learn and the adoption of that and the

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: management of that as it is a technology shift, I think. So you're spot on. And so when

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going through that, you know, you're at the end of the day, you know, focused on

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: transformation programs are all about the human. And we have, we really have a ton of research

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: around that that talk, that really talk about that humans at the center approach. And unless

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you're taking a human centered approach, you're 12 times more likely to fail. Like really,

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: really focusing on that human aspect and element and making sure that you're placing

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: the human at the center of that adoption. And so, you know, that would be my best piece

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: of advice around that is, you know, how are you training everyone? How are you making sure

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that they understand the why, you know, it's important to adopt what's the value associated

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: with it? You know, how are you taking them along that journey at whatever pace? You know,

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: we've got staff and seniors that jump right in, you know, they're already adopting their way

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: ahead. You know, and then we have obviously some of some of our more experienced people

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that are more skeptical as you say, are more risk averse around it. And so you want to take

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: it at their pace and do things that are value added to them in the way that they work. So

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: that might be my advice on that piece.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and apologies in advance if I did offend anyone in the tax departments for saying they're

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: risk averse. And I think the main reason I suggested that is because there are so many

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: new regulations and legislations that they have to follow and in particular, two that spring

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to mind, BEPS 2.0, Inflation Reduction Act. So how do you envision the role of tax professionals

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: evolving in the next decade? Because there's so much going on, isn't there, with that balance

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of technology innovation and regulation at the same time?

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: There is. And I think honestly, I think that's why tax professionals love tax, right? They

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: tend to be people who love change, right? Because they have the landscape if you think

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a hundred and you know, whatever, I'm gonna say 150 plus countries, I'll just use

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that for purpose of this conversation. And the legislation is constantly changing. So 200

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: million plus, you know, laws on the books that are changing constantly. And so you

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: nailed it in the big one. So we obviously have BEPS, which is the rewrite of a

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: bricks and mortars economy right to a digital economy ultimately. And then we have,

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, IRA you mentioned, which is all about sustainability really in the end

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and what we're focused on there. And so again, these are big, big topics that are real

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: in our society and obviously our economy. And so, you know, new regulations and a

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: new global landscape is coming forward around those. And so you're spot on. We're

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: gonna continue to see change. We're gonna continue to see different economic cycles

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: around those. And we're gonna continue to see governments moving forward around those.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're gonna see technology evolve again in the way that all of that's deployed.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's gonna be sustainability, technology, supply chains. And these are big, big capital

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: decisions that companies need to navigate right and making big strategic choices around it. So

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of activity that tax departments are taking on and how they serve as a strategic

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: advisor ultimately to the C suite around them. So you're spot on that. That collaboration

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: between tax and finance functions and all the departments, you know, sales, customers,

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: operations are really, really important in navigating the landscape that keeps changing

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and will keep changing ultimately. Yeah, you're so right. You mentioned another

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: word there, sustainability, something we're hearing more and more about often in the

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: same sense of AI, which is somewhat ironic considering the energy problem that AI has,

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: but that's a topic for another day. With so many companies though looking to ESG scores

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and ESG scores of the departments or even support partnerships they have with third parties.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: How are you preparing your tax professionals to adopt to this increasing emphasis on creating

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: a fairer and greener world through tax policies? Because again, I mean, there's what? 5,000

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: miles between you and I, but it's conversations that we're seeing happening everywhere.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, it's a great question. We're a learning culture, as you can imagine when

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: in services and then public accounting, the foundation of what we do is all about learning

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and all about upskilling. And so it's a, yeah, we're lucky to have a world-class

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: learning organization and really get to focus on that. And so that future focused skills

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: is one of the things we're really focused on and sustainability certainly is one of them.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And so as an example, last year we had more than a million learning hours, right? Consumed

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: globally by just our tax professionals, our 76,000 tax professionals. And so we have a

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: master's actually in sustainability that we work with the whole business school around.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really designed our future focused practical skills and a transformative mindset

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: around what it looks like to have long-term sustainable inclusive growth ultimately.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's a free degree for all of our EY people regardless of our anchor location.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really about helping them gain that knowledge and the practical skills and

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: experience they need to create long-term value around sustainability. And so those are the kinds

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: of things we have. And then similarly, you talked about AI and technology, the same thing for

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: AI and technology. We've had really technology for the last decade. So that starts when

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: you're a staff here at EY and EY tax in particular, because again, I was talking about

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: how much data we work with and we do it. What's really fun is obviously now we have AI

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: in particular to apply to that. So we started last year, a call UI tax copilot. So about

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00]: this great 18 months ago now it was actually before Microsoft copilot had come out.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we started a really an overall education enablement program to prepare our 76,000

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: professionals across the globe on low code and no code technologies powered by generative

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: AI. So really jumping into that obviously even more so now with how quickly everything's

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: advancing certainly with chat GPT and with Microsoft.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious on that. We've mentioned the 76,000 people you've talked about, the teams.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: In what ways are you changing or seeing changes in working preferences and technologies

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: like gen AI and how are they influencing the way tax teams operate on a day-to-day

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: basis and delivering their services? Because again, I think a lot of people hear about

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the hype and what it might be able to do, but I'd love to just expand on what it's

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: doing right now. Yeah, no, I'd be happy to. So if you think about like again,

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: think about any simple task you do. I mean take things you do in, think of how many word

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: documents we produce, think of how many Excel spreadsheets we're working in and how we are

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously maintaining and there's lots of calculations inside that. Think of how many

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: PowerPoints we obviously produce. And so what's, I mean, I'll just take the simple

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: desktop applications like that Microsoft has and you think about having a copilot,

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll use examples I do. I can do a simple outline in Word of a PowerPoint I'd like to have

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: created and then I obviously hand it over to Microsoft copilot in PowerPoint and say,

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: now create a PowerPoint for me and it'll create a first draft of that. So with images and

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously with an actual PowerPoint background that's EY standard. And so that's just from

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: my thoughts typed into a Microsoft Word document. So just outlining what I want

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and what I want the framework of that to look like and it gives me a first draft

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: in PowerPoint. Same on my email if I want to, everybody has a boss and so if I want to say,

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, sort my email by my boss and then on my way to work as I'm driving in,

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to have what read to me, that's what happens inside a copilot. So some really,

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: really efficient things that we can do and have done for us by having a friend,

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: a copilot right next to us as we work through our tasks. And many, many more. We work a

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously with data and so we have a lot that we do with many of the advanced technologies

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and copilots around. 100% with you, it's great to hear stories like that. It really is.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Especially around working smart and not hard. It's not about replacing people,

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it's that copilot working seamlessly side by side. That's a message that often gets missed.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Now obviously artificial intelligence is the hero of the hour. That's what gets all the

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: attention but it's only as good as the data we put in there and companies have

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: vast amounts of data right now. They're trying to find those hidden insights within it. So

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: can you tell me a bit more about how you're seeing that relationship between AI and data

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of the results that you're seeing from them?

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the things that we're seeing with data is taking that data and actually

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: inserting what we call intelligent agents. So think about a bot or a really intelligent agent

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: taking that information and then turning it, making suggestions, sort of nudging and making

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: suggestions. You put that data, let's say it's cash flow data and it's going to say,

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: hey if you did X, Y, and Z on your payables or your receivables as an example,

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: you'd be able to improve your cash flow by X amount of days. Or maybe it's data that's

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: going to make suggestions about R&D incentives in certain countries because again it can see

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: when you match it up with legislation, you have a global sustainability tracks,

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: green tax tracker, that's a tongue twister. But again it matches that data up with horizon

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: scanning on legislation and make suggestions like really we call it intelligent agent because

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: it's making really good suggestions. So again those are things, it's vast amounts of data,

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: vast amount of legislation globally and in many, many countries and matching those two things

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: up and producing extraordinary outcomes that weren't possible before.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And outside of the technology, I was doing a little research on you before you came on

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the podcast and I know another area that you're passionate about is diversity and inclusiveness.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you ensure that these values are reflected in this huge team of yours and

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: what's your, especially around the EYs, tax strategy and client services etc. Anything

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you can share around that because for what I was reading something's very important to you.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah it is. Look I love working on high performing teams, I love being on high

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: performing teams and I think at the heart of that is having diverse teams and a really

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: inclusive environment. And so you know that's something I think we all as leaders or as

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: partners, as employees, I think we have to model that. I think we have to reinforce that,

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we have to reward that and I think that has everything to do with how you show

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: up. You know every day how we show up and work with our clients ultimately and you know

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that is, you know that's about bringing your best self to work and your whole

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: ultimately and being in an open and safe environment inside the four walls of EY.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And then as we take EY out to the world into our clients and into our communities and so

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: you know I think that's the thing that we're all really really focused on at EY.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We have this, you know we have a program and then the way we think about is transformative

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: leadership and purpose driven leadership and that's for everybody. That is not a

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: for a leader title that is for you know 400,000 people plus that are EY ultimately and so

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean that's really philosophy you know from a philosophy perspective the culture that we

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: embrace and that we strive to create. We're not perfect right but that's certainly how we see it.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And just to dig a little bit deeper into that philosophy and maybe bring it to life

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: for people listening around the world, are there any initiatives you can share that EYs

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to maybe promote that authentic leadership development and build high performing

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: collaborative tech teams that embrace these values of diversity and inclusion etc.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything you can share around that?

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I'm happy, yeah sure I'm happy too. Look there's really formal things obviously we do

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: like you know certainly learning and development like there we have an inclusive

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: leadership brawl program so there's you know there's lots of things you can take and that

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly we take as a team like and again the many teams I've been on we actually take

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: them together so you know we can talk about them and we can think about them.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You know there was this great course I took when I was a senior, I've taken it a couple

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: times, they took it as a senior manager probably as a 10-year partner it was about

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: bias and so it was whether you're conscious or unconscious and you have bias or you know no

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: biases and of course everybody has biases and everybody has unconscious biases and you know

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: your goal ultimately is to get to consciousness and to get to awareness of your biases because

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you can do something with them so that's one like just great course I would just give as an

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: example. We all have it, it's just that simple and so it's becoming conscious about them and

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: then obviously doing something with it. Another really thing that I'm extraordinarily proud of

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it's led by Karen Tornado our global D&I officer is our global social equity task force

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and so this is something we've had our chairman links it now will be Janet Trinkoli

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: to thank Armani Decibio but we've had a gset for boy as long as I've been with the

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: arm which is 30 plus years and so it which is extraordinary and it is all about cohesive

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: global actions to advance equity and inclusion and really we've been focused on social equity

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: as of late and so those are some extraordinary pieces of work. We focus on neurodiversity as

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: well a really unique set of skill sets and we have an extraordinary couple of centers around

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: the world that that we get extraordinary outcomes from so again a lot of different examples

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're just I think they're just beautiful ways that you can see that inclusion and that

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: bringing your best self to work that's really inspiring so and I love you know I love being

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: in a culture and in a ultimately in an environment that looks like that.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well thank you so much for sharing your time with me and taking the time to offer

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: such candied authentic insights into what goes on there at EY and how you're using technology

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and bringing so much of it to life and how it's actually solving real world problems

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: right here right now not in the future so I'm going to see if there's something we can do for

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you in return now because some of the biggest names in business VC funding and tech have either

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: been guests or maybe just listened to this podcast so is there a person that you'd love

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to have a private breakfast or lunch with because he or she might just hear this but

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: who would it be and why let's see what we can manifest together.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So I have some you're in a lab I have a handful here.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh go for it yeah we'll send it out then.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So I have personal ones, I have sports ones and I have business ones so let's see

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: let's see what we can do so business-wise there are two people I obviously really really

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: admire and respect and so Saudi Adela and Richard Branson and obviously they're

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: from for many of the reasons they're both you know really really diverse leaders,

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: they're innovative leaders, they're daring leaders, they you know they have beautiful

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: cultures, they've made impact and they both embrace AI obviously so those would be two

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that I would say on the business side.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Tara Swisher I think she's an extraordinary interviewer, she's curious,

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: she's a great question asker, she's a tech czar, she's on my list and then I'll give you

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I love sports and I think somebody that's extraordinary at building high performing teams

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and producing outcomes is Mike Shishovsky and then last but not least the girl of the hour,

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a brilliant business person, a brand power czar, she is kind and she's resilient Taylor Swift.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow you've shot for the moon there, I don't think you've increased the chances.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well what a dinner party that would be, we need to make that happen.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Tara Swisher That would be awesome,

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: before we could have so much fun.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Well I'm gonna just put that out into the ether, let's see what we can manifest together

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: here but just make sure you don't forget my invite if we pull this one off.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Tara Swisher Don't you worry.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And for anyone listening maybe they want to explore some of the topics we talked about

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: today obviously EY is a huge website, is anywhere in particular you'd like to point

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: anyone or connect with you on LinkedIn etc, where would you like everyone to go?

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Tara Swisher Yeah thank you for that and yes I think

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: LinkedIn is absolutely the best place right where we have tons of content obviously you know

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm posting constantly on things I'm interested in or obviously technology in particular and then

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: we obviously are just our EY company page similarly with lots of depth and insights

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: from across the firm and so you see that. I actually recently spoke on our EY Techs and Law

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: focus podcast to discuss AI in particular we had guests from Microsoft join us as well so

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think lots of good stuff you know from a podcast perspective that's out there too.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Toby Oh okay well I'm going to ask your team

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to send me a link to that episode because maybe I can embed it in the blog post associated

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: with this so people can check that out too and I'll also include your LinkedIn and everything

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and we covered so much today what I found most valuable is there's a lot of hype around AI but

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: businesses trying to work out what it means for them and I just love how you brought the world of

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: accountancy and financial literacy to live today talking about how tax professionals yes they're

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: under pressure to invest in new technologies especially generative AI as more organizations

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: push to be perceived as that forward thinking and innovative company while achieving efficiency

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: gains and if that's not enough of a balance we're also bringing in new regulations, new

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and challenges in an open forum and how AI can help with that is just priceless I'll be interested

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01]: in what the listeners think and maybe they can share some of their struggles and opportunities

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that they're experiencing too but more than anything Marla just thank you for bringing this

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_01]: topic to life today and start in this conversation thank you.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Marla My pleasure Neil anytime.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Toby I think it's clear that while AI brings exciting opportunities to the tax profession

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it also demands careful consideration of the human element in technology adoption and this

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: is something that Marla has got covered here so it was great to share that story

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: from that significance of an inclusive leadership to the strategic integration of new tools

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: for me today's discussion sheds light on balancing innovation with practical

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: implementation but what are your thoughts on integrating AI into traditional fields like tax

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe you've got a different area that you work in maybe legal do you have any effective examples

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of technology blending seamlessly with human oversight because I think AI on its own humans

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: on their own that's nothing compared to what they bring to the table together and these

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: are the stories I want to share more of on the podcast so please share your experience with

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: me whether it be a quick comment on socials at Neil C Hughes LinkedIn Twitter Instagram

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: or if you want to send me an email or come on the podcast have a little chat with me

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: just email me tech blog writer outlook.com and together we'll continue to uncover how

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: technology is not just supporting but transforming entire professional landscapes

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but that's it for today I'm going to try and manifest that incredible dinner party that

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: suggested that Marner would like me to bring to life that's a big challenge but hey I'm up for

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: it so thank you for listening today hopefully you'll join me again tomorrow and until next time

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: don't be a stranger