3020: Parity Technologies: Web3 Regulation, Diversity in Tech, and the Legal Impact of Blockchain

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the Tech Talks Daily Podcast. Quick question for everyone. What happens when

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the rapid pace of technological innovation outstrips the ability of regulators to keep

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: up? Well, in the evolving world of Web3 this question is more pressing than ever. So today

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm quite excited to be joined by Chrissie Hill. She's the Chief Legal Officer and

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: CEO at Parity Technologies, a company at the forefront of building decentralised blockchain

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: networks like Polkernot. And Chrissie brings with her a unique perspective on the fractured

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: state of Web3 regulation and also the impact that that has on things like creativity,

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: innovation, all the fun stuff. So today I want to dive into the importance of diversity,

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly female leadership in shaping the future of Web3 and also how disruptive

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: technologies like blockchain, like AI, are poised to transform the legal landscape.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Something we don't talk about very often and today we're going to change that.

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[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for your patience today. This is the moment you've been waiting for.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's time to welcome my guest onto the show.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So buckle up and hold on tight as I beam your ears all the way to London where

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: you can sit down with myself and Chrissie where we'll talk about all this and much more.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, a massive warm welcome to the show.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me, Neil.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a pleasure to talk to you.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Chrissie Hill and I am the chief legal officer and interim chief

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: operating officer for Parity Technologies, which y'all will be forgiven for

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe not knowing off the top of your head what Parity does, but it's the

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: leading contributor from a technical perspective to Polkadot, which is a

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: blockchain protocol.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And there is so much hype around Web3, there has been for a number of years

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: now and one of the things that people keep talking about and the need for

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: is regulation.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So can you tell me the current state of Web3 regulation and why it's often

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: considered fractured?

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably a question you get a lot, but what are you seeing here?

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And just as a quick side note for everyone to help provide context,

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Gavin Wood, Dr.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Gavin Wood is the founder of Polkadot and he was actually one of the

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: co-founders of Ethereum and he is actually the person credited with

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: coining the term Web3.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You will even find that in Ethereum's Wiki and in various news

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: sources.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So the name itself is something that it's obviously very prevalent in

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and I also feel a special connection to it by virtue of working with the

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: gentleman who is credited with coining the term.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is actually part of the reason why I decided to join Polkadot

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and Parity Technologies, because I always felt that there was a strong

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: influence and attention paid to law and regulation, which is of course

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: my background and something that while I was looking at entering the

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: world of Web3, and this was almost three years ago now, I wanted to

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: find some place that had a strong grounding in the more traditional

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: world that I had come from.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I joined in January 2022, certainly I had no idea that my

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: desire to join an area, an industry that would be at the frontier of law

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and regulation would actually be as wild as it has been for the past few

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: years because it has been fractured.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason why is because it's new, it's exciting, it's innovative

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and everyone is still getting educated about it, wrapping their head

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: around what it means while the engineers are still iterating.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So the regulatory space is quickly catching up to the technology, but

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: you definitely see a broad spectrum of jurisdictions and how they've tackled

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: innovation and their relationship with innovation, which I have

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: found absolutely fascinating.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I must admit, I get carried away as much as everyone else about

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that wild Web3 ride and the innovative space and how quickly

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: things change, but deep inside there is a very sensible, cautious IT

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: guy that knows the importance of running these things.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you see a clear regulatory framework impacting some of those

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: exciting things we're talking about like creativity and innovation

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: within the Web3 space?

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we spend maybe too much time on one area, but not the other,

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's so important, isn't it?

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And certainly one of the things that I have tried to do coming into

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: the Polkadot community is help educate founders on their legal and

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: compliance plan that they need to put in place from the outset.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause let's be honest, the engineers, they want to build.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I look at engineers like artists really, their medium is code,

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're building and they're creating and they're innovating.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And sure, it's not oil on canvas or bronze, but it's still something

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: very creative in particular to them.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And they want to focus on that and not on the operational elements

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: of running a business.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not necessarily their forte.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think systems and jurisdictions that provide certainty in the form

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: of good regulation for developers, for founders.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So they can build that into their business plan, build that into their

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: budgets, because remember a lot of these projects are super small.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It might be, you know, a one person shop or it could be something much

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: bigger when you have that certainty such as what Mika is delivering in the

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: EU, whether you think it's good, whether you think it's bad, it's

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_00]: who do create and do build to focus on what they do best.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you contrast that with other jurisdictions that have provided

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: no certainty at all, which you see is an exodus of developers leaving

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that jurisdiction for other jurisdictions that do offer that certainty.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're actually seeing that in the U S Coinbase just put out a

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: article I think in the last couple of weeks about the sheer number of

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: three developers who are exiting the U S because they want to go to

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: jurisdictions like the EU, like the UK, also like Hong Kong and

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Singapore and UAE who are creating sandboxes for innovation, who are

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: actively attracting founders and developers because those are more

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: favorable jurisdictions.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would love to see certainty, but with good regulation.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: 100% with you.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know the Polkadot community are incredibly passionate.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: They'll be hanging on your every word on a lot of things we're talking

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: about here.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So for everybody listening, what role does Harity Technologies play in

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: helping to navigate and shape this regulatory landscape for blockchain

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and Web3 technologies that we're talking about here?

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you expand on what you do there?

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So in my role as the chief legal officer and interim COO for Parity,

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: which focuses on the engineering aspects, which focuses on the

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: builders, we are and we're located in the UK mostly and in Germany.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We've really focused on those jurisdictions to understand developer

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: liability, to also support the Web3 foundation, which is the issuer of

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Polkadot's native token DOT in order to liaise with regulators around

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: the world to talk about DOT as for instance, a utility token.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So we help support the Web3 foundation as the issuer of DOT historically

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: in order to engage in various jurisdictions, to get the message out,

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to educate people.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and this is also something that I have previous experience in

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: because I like to say I've worked for four great British names and

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: those are Linklater's, the law firm, Barclays, the bank, Tony Blair,

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the former UK prime minister, and now Dr.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Gavin Wood, the co-founder of Ethereum and the founder of Polkadot.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And so with that political hat on, especially working with Mr.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Blair, this engagement with regulators is something that I'm

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: familiar with and happy to engage with in order to educate.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll give you a quick story if you would indulge me, Neil.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But when I first joined, I went to an event at the houses of

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: parliament, I think it was like my first month.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, some of the people there knew me from my previous

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: role with Mr.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Blair and one of the gentlemen came up to me who was a member of

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: parliament and shall remain nameless and said, Chrissy, you

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: helped work for Mr.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Blair for almost a decade.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Why have you joined a bunch of people who cannot even spell

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: hold or build the right way?

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I laughed, Neil.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I stopped and I thought, actually, that means we're not

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: doing our job properly if a legislator and if a very

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: intelligent individual felt that way about the industry,

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: we were being too exclusive by the use of acronyms, by the

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: approach that we take to what we're building that we're so

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: proud of.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It can be very opaque and intimidating to many people.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And to not educate is a detriment to us all.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would like to think that I have, with my plain

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: talking southern ways, have helped to maybe make some

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_00]: complicated topics a little bit more digestible.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, love that.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What a great story.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And you also mentioned a moment ago, Mika, of course, we're not

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: talking about the pop singer.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about the regulations.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So how does the introduction of regulations like EU's Mika

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: influence the direction of Web 3 development and adoption?

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you seeing here?

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's early yet to tell.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you see more evidence of frustration where there is

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: no certainty at all.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there are so many jurisdictions right now that

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: are providing a certainty and attraction that I think many

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: founders and companies aren't putting their eggs into one

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: basket.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You see them setting up entities in a variety of

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00]: jurisdictions rather than maybe just one where they have the

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_00]: resources to do so.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And seeing how events develop.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think next year will be a really important year,

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: especially in Europe, as the member states begin to bring in

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: place any requirements on top of the basic legislation.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that will influence a lot in terms of

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: where projects are going.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But definitely you are seeing more projects focus on those

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: jurisdictions that are providing that certainty.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there was a grace period where everyone knew that

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: regulators and legislators didn't want to make mistakes.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: They wanted to learn.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They wanted to take their time.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's been a while now.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, parity has been around for quite some time.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: We're getting five, 10 years down the line with a lot of

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: projects.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's time to give people the information they need to be

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: successful.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that really stands out for me is how

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you're really shining and what has traditionally been

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhat of a male dominated environment and not just the

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: tech industry, you're talking about politically as well and

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: the likes of the MP who will remain nameless, I assume was

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: a male, but I don't know.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But so I've got to ask, how important is this female

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: presence and diversity in the Web3 space?

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And how are you supporting that initiative and bringing more

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: people into this space too?

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: For me personally, being a mother, being a parent actually

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: has been something from a diversity angle that I didn't

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: realize was going to be as important as it was.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't appreciate that I was raising the average age by

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: 10 years when I joined parity.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And there were very few parents around and very few

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: females.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I was the first female member of that particular C-suite at

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: parity.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I do look around the room frequently and do notice there

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: is a higher number of males than females, although I think

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that has improved in the last couple of years.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I did not intend to be a first generation female

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: leader in any way, shape or form.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I had historically worked in male dominated environments,

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: corporate law, investment banking, politics, some cases

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: with governments where women weren't even supposed to be

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: around the table.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So that wasn't something that intimidated me.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But certainly being a first generation female leader, I'd

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: had role models before me who were female in all those

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: industries by at least one if not two generations.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So I take that responsibility really seriously.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, that responsibility of being a parent and modeling

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: what that means for a work-life balance.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I take that seriously as well.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And also just trying to be a kind human in an industry

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that really is turned on 24-7 and moves so fast that it

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: can be very overwhelming to just people in general to

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00]: stay up to speed with all the different developments

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: in the tech, never mind legal compliance, tax,

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: accounting, list it out.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm trying to combine all of that together, Neil,

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and just role model the best that I can knowing that

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm never going to get it right and I could always

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: be better, but I'll try to be the best.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you are.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And your passion for the subject really shines through today.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And not just your passion for the topic, but also

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: demystifying the technology, talking about it in a language

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that everyone can understand and bringing in people that

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: might be intimidated by the space.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And on that side of things, how do you see disruptive

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: technologies within Web 3 potentially changing the

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: law, the way laws are applied and interpreted by people

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: like lawyers, judges and juries, etc.?

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the legal profession is...

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think at first it was very scared by how blockchain

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and AI in particular were being talked about.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But again, an interesting fun fact.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know that blockchain technology was first

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: invented in the early 90s by Haber and Stornetta

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: at the request of lawyers and judges so they could

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: time and date stamp documents.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And that actually is quoted in the blockchain white

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: paper, I think it's like footnote five or six,

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Haber and Stornetta's research.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, of course, Merkle trees were added

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: later and it developed from there.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But again, I feel like when lawyers hear that

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: particular fact, you become more comfortable with it.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Also a fact that I think particularly helps my

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_00]: generation, I'm a Gen Xer, I'll proudly, proudly

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: proclaim that is that we all know a lot more

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: about coding than we give ourselves credit for

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because we all started off on those little Apple

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: green screen computers where you actually had to

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: type in commands to get things to print, to get

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the system to run.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we all remember that.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's first steps in programming, right?

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course it has advanced and there's

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: programming languages.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I always apologize to the engineers.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not trying to downplay or anything that

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: they do, but I feel like giving people that

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: kernel of connection is again something that

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: goes a long way to helping people see the

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: benefits.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think with lawyers, if you start out,

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: it helps us time and dates in the documents.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, well then how can it be useful as evidence?

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And then what is the efficacy of the

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_00]: information that's going into the blockchain?

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we prove that?

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: What ethical systems can you put in place in

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_00]: order to show that it's not hearsay?

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm talking from a very criminal kind of

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: law perspective.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And then how could juries vote in a way

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that you know couldn't be changed so there's

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: human interference.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're now getting to that next level

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of detail and also looking at the

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_00]: enforceability of smart contracts, looking

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: at cross jurisdictional cooperation,

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: looking at how from a logistics perspective

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: or a supply chain perspective, you can

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: follow the chain of custody for things

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: very easily using blockchain.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: The benefits are starting to become greater.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And then also blockchain and AI together.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Scary at first for a lot of lawyers, is

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: it going to take our jobs?

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But actually when you realize

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: blockchain can provide useful guardrails

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: for AI to address legal issues like

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: trademark, like IP, like privacy, and

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you still need lawyers to help interpret

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and build that and understand the technology.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You begin to see how we can evolve as a

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: profession as well, which brings me to

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: my book, which is Tomorrow's Lawyers by

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Susskind.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think we'll talk a little bit

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: more about that later, Neil.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But I just wanted to throw that in

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: as a great resource for any lawyers

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: who might be listening to peruse.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Love that.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: As a proud GenXer myself, my

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: introduction to computing was going into

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: supermarkets as a young boy and

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: finding those computers on sale and

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: typing out 10 print, Neil is cool,

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: 20 go to 10.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So one bit of programming that's

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: stuck with me all these years.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, somebody asked me the other day,

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: this is funny.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: They were like, do you know what

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: a Commodore 64 is?

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I had one.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were like, wow.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you know, I didn't see

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the dinosaurs, but it did have a

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Commodore 64.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was a big Commodore 64 guy as well.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then look into the future though.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what are the biggest

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: challenges that you foresee in

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: implementing things like robust

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Web 3 legislation and anything that

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: you're looking to overcome to

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: address those challenges?

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually us.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually boomers and GenXers

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: who are in power right now

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: as politicians, governments,

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: corporate leaders, because

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: whether they feel uncomfortable

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or threatened by the technology

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and are blocking it for whatever

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: reason, I think it's ultimately

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: fruitless because my 13 year old

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and eight year old spent two years

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: of their lives on Roblox,

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: dealing with Robux being

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: comfortable with their virtual

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: identity.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: This is how they think the

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: world should work.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Because my kids being in London

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and we were properly on lockdown,

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: we couldn't leave the house.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't going to school.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So their existence really was

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: with their friends in

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: particular was virtual.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think this digital

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: economy, this digital identity

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: is inevitable.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And we have to do it carefully.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We have to do it thoughtfully.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We need to be very mindful

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: of the dangers, not go too fast.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think this train

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: can be stopped.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we might as well get on

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: board and make sure it's going

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: to the best possible destination

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that supports everybody.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: 100% with you.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And one other topic that we

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: got to mention whenever talking

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: about Web3 space is mass adoption.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So looking ahead to the future,

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: would you anticipate there how

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to increase mass

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: adoption into this space,

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and especially in relation to

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: regulatory frameworks as well?

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you seeing on the road

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: ahead? Anything excite you there?

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think with mass adoption,

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: we're getting there.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there was a negative

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: perception to overcome for Web3

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: because people naturally

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: lump everybody together in the same

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: category and we're not all SPF.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We are not all FTX.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I and blockchain technology

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: is certainly more than just

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: crypto currencies.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think people are beginning

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to become more comfortable

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: with that concept and seeing

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the benefits.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I actually think that

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: the U.S. attorney on the same

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Sam Bankman Fried case said

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: best, he said it to the jury

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and he said, listen,

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the technology is new.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: The players are new.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But what we're dealing with

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: is as old as time.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's humans lying,

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: cheating and stealing.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And that has nothing to do

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: with the technology.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was such

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: a fantastic way to frame

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the conversation.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think because of the

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: persistence of the industry,

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the continued dialogue

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: with regulators

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and just because of the

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: interest in Web3

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: in general, we are seeing

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: people become more comfortable.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Businesses start to use it.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're going to have

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to be more comfortable with that.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: People say they want mass adoption.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But that means regulation.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It just does.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So you can't have one

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_00]: without the other.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But again, if it's good regulation

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's still fostering

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: innovation, then I hope

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: we can live with that

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and live with the spirit of

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: inclusivity for everyone

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and not just those

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: who are tech savvy.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, again,

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: on the Web3 side

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: of the conversation,

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: more and more people

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00]: are talking about the world

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and where we're going in that way.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm positive about it.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is a powerful

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: moment to finish on.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But before I do let you go,

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I always ask my guests

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: to leave everyone listening

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: with one final gift,

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: a book that they would recommend

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that we can add to an Amazon

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: wishlist where listeners

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: can go and browse

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: through those books.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you may have already left

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a little spoiler out of the bag,

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: but what book would you like

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: to add to Amazon

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: wishlist in one?

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'll give you two.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: One, and it's written

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: by a father and son,

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Susskind

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and Daniel Susskind.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So Richard Susskind

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: is the president for the Society

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: for Computers in Law in the UK

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and a technology advisor

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: to the Lord Chief Justice

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: of England and Wales.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And so he's written this book

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: specifically about what

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: tomorrow's lawyers need to look at,

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: what they need to

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: educate themselves about,

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: what they need to focus on

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: in order to be successful.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And his son,

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Daniel Susskind,

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: wrote The Future of Professions.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So it goes way beyond just the law

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and goes into, I mean,

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: all kinds of professions

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and how, again, technology

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00]: is going to impact

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: those professions.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Health, education, divinity,

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: journalism, management,

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: consulting, architecture.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the list goes on and on.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would definitely say

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: in this brave new world

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're creating,

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it is worth reading

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and listening to

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: authors like the Susskinds,

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: listening to people such as yourself

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to help see down

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: the road a bit and what

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: we should be striving for.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: for sitting down with me today.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I've genuinely,

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely love talking with you

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and for everyone listening.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they want to carry

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: on the conversation,

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: dig a little bit deeper

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: into some of the topics

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: we explored together today.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Where's the best place

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: for them to find you

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: or your team online

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and find out more about

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: anything we talked about today

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: or even join the

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: the Polkadot community?

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. Well,

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I would always love

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: to have a conversation

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: about law and regulation

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: with anyone if they want to geek out

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: with me about that in Polkadot.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You can find me on Twitter

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: or X.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's at USC Hill

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and on LinkedIn,

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Chrissy Hill.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You'll find me.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to find out

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: more about Polkadot,

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: it's Polkadot.com

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: or Polkadot.network

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can get to parody

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: from the Polkadot site.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm looking forward

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: to continuing the conversation

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and Neil,

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I have thoroughly enjoyed this.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for a lovely

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Friday afternoon chat.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I will get everything

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: added to the show notes.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So any member of the community

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: can find out more information

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: on anything we talked about today.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're outside

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the community,

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe you have been

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: intimidated by this space

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: in the past.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully this conversation

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: has eased your passage in.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But as for yourself,

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Chrissy, just love chatting

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: about the fractious state

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: of Web3 regulation,

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the impact this can have

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: on creativity and innovation

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in the space,

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but also shining a light

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: on your female presence

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and the importance

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: of diversity in this space.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't talk about it enough.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So a big thank you

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: for sharing your story today.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's always a pleasure

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and I definitely

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say to anybody

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: who wants to strike out

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: into this Web3 world.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: for something that's boring,

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: this is not the place for you.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're looking

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: for always being stimulated

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and something new happening,

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: even in the more

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: traditional worlds of law

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and regulation,

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: this is the place for you.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: As Chrissy highlighted,

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the intersection of regulation,

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: innovation and diversity

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: in Web3 presents both

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: challenges and opportunities.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And the path to widespread

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: adoption of this technology

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think depends on clear

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and balanced regulations,

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: not to mention a commitment

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: to diversity

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and a forward thinking approach

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: to how emerging technologies

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: could reshape

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: traditional industries.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But what does the future hold?

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Can regulators keep pace

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: with innovation?

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And how will this impact

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the Web3 landscape?

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to hear your thoughts

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: on some of the pressing issues

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that we've highlighted today

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and this conversation,

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: like every conversation

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: on this Daily Tech podcast,

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not just about me

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and the guest.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to bring each

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and every one of you

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: into the conversation.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I always say at the end

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: of every episode

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01]: in a cheesy way,

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: technology works best

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: when it brings people together.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So please email me

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: techblogwriteratlook.com,

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram,

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: wherever you hang out.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You can get me on

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: at Neil C Hughes,

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: but I'm not asking you

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to just hit that follow button.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Send me a quick DM,

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, ask me a question,

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: tell me what you thought,

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: highlight things that you thought

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01]: we forgot about

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: on this discussion today

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: or areas that you'd like

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to come on here

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and talk about with me.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's keep this conversation going.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But that is it

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: for today's episode.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're new to the podcast,

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll return again tomorrow morning

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll talk about

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: a completely different industry

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and a different area

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of how technology is transforming it.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But that is it for today.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for listening as always

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and until next time,

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: don't be a stranger.