3041: The Human Element: SHL's Take on AI in Recruitment

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_01]: In today's rapidly evolving job market, how can companies stay ahead in the race for securing

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: talent?

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, to answer this very question, I've invited Andy Bradshaw, CEO of SHL to join me on the

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast today.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They are a global leader in HR technology and psychometric science, and with over 25

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: years of experience in technology and service industries, including leadership roles at

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Hulik Pakon and Microsoft, Andy brings a wealth of knowledge on the intersection of technology,

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: talent and business performance.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Under his leadership, SHL has transformed into a cutting edge talent-intelligent platform

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that is currently providing workforce insights across 150 countries, leveraging a vast data

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: lake of 45 billion data points.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So in this episode, we're going to explore the pressing challenges and opportunities in

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: early career recruitment, and also explore the strategies companies can use to solve the

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: critical talent problems through internal recruitment, and also the importance of hiring

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: beyond technical skills and focusing on durable human qualities.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, also of course the celebration of diversity in the workplace and the ethical

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: integration of AI and the recruitment process.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So whether you are navigating talent acquisition challenges or looking to future proof your

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: hiring practices, this conversation promises to offer valuable insights that hopefully

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: will help you drive your organization forward.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Reaching listeners in 165 countries every day is testament to the unwavering support

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of you my listeners and our sponsors without whom this podcast just simply wouldn't

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[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Now is the moment you've really been waiting for.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It's time to get today's guests on.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So buckle up and hold on tight as I beam your ears all the way to the UK where you

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: can sit down with myself and Andy Bradshaw.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So a massive warm welcome to the show, Andy.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Andy Bradshaw.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the CEO of SHL.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you a little bit about myself and maybe a little bit about the

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: business as well.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I spent pretty much all my career in technology businesses.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first half was with a couple of the big book guys.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: She looked Packard and Microsoft.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the second half was more sort of mid-sized technology based businesses

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that are going through some form of transformation.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: What I enjoy is how technology can really positively impact both people

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and also businesses and obviously having the ability to lead

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: organizations through that change, which is similar to what I've done at

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_00]: SHL for those that don't know SHL.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: SHL actually is a business that has its roots in assessments.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So assessing people for jobs, but we've actually gone through

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: quite a significant transformation and now

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: SHL is the world's leading talent intelligence platform.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So we use assessments and software to provide insight into the workforce.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We do that globally in 150 countries, about 6,000 customers.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And somewhere around 45 billion data points on people in the workforce,

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: which is probably the largest data lake of any organization around people in the workforce.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Every day on this podcast, I always try to talk about a different area

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of how technology is impacting it.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I suspect we don't always think about technology and recruitment

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: or the impact that it's having.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I also know another topic very close to your heart

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: is the social and business impact of early career recruitment.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm curious from everything you're seeing here, how are you seeing this

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: shaping the employment landscape, particularly in the context of

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: this rapidly changing job market and tech talent shortages?

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There's just like much going on, isn't there?

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think that's absolutely right.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was funny, fascinating because as you said,

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: technology has influenced so many parts of business and social lives.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to sort of the workforce, it's used less.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Customers have got CRM systems and they know everything about the customers,

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: where they visit, what they do, when they do it.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But when you think about the workforce, there's not a lot of that type of data.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's often manager reviews or something like that.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's this whole wave of insight around the workforce,

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: both for hiring and for sort of talent management

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're about to embark upon because organizations are rapidly changing

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: now and need to make decisions very quickly in a rapidly changing environment.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So having some more data in terms of enabling to make those decisions,

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I think is a natural evolution.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's very similar to what's happening in early careers.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think early careers now is more important than ever for businesses and organizations.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you think about it, there's some huge themes

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that are still happening in the marketplace.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The will for talent continues to rage on.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I was reading an article just last week, actually, where there's a gap

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: in the global workforce equivalent to the population of Germany.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So by 20, 20, 20 30, that will be a gap

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: in the equivalent of the population of Germany.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: That's huge.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But out in Japan two weeks ago, they are actually recruiting thousands

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: of graduates to come into their education markets or they were into their

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: early careers markets because they don't have the local talent

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the birth rate in Japan.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So the will for talent is really driving more and more focus on early careers

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: but also skills for the future.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: There's many articles have been written, again, one that I read recently

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: in Forbes said that by 20 30 something like 85 percent of us

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: will be doing jobs that don't currently exist.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So thinking about skills, thinking about early careers,

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking about how do you look at talent pools rather than just a specific

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: set of skills for a specific job, I think is going to be important.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But then there's also the social implications because people in early

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: careers, I think have got different expectations now of careers.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: The need for things like flexible working, the real need for understanding

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: of the culture and values of a business they're going to join or

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: the purpose and the meaning.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Can they do three jobs in a corporate and two

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: three days in a corporate and two days in a charity?

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: These are all big decisions that the younger generation

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: are now starting to ask of early careers employers.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I really feel for the younger generation who are at school,

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: college and university ages.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: As you said there, they're in education preparing for jobs that don't exist yet.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And in some areas of education, the children seem to know more than

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the educational sorry on the speed of technological change.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're using all these tools all the time, just naturally.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So if we do hone in on early recruitment for a moment, what are some

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: of the most significant challenges that you see education

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and companies facing in early recruitment?

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And how can they overcome them to ensure that we get top talent

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: out there and how companies can secure that top talent?

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I agree.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the first thing for companies to recognise and it's amazing

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that some still don't.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a two way process recruitment.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You and I will probably be familiar with big organisations doing what used

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to be called in the UK, the milk round.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd be honoured to almost be able to talk to them.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. But now a lot of early careers,

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: graduates coming into positions, they want more understanding of the role.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, they've almost in order to find out more about me,

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I need to understand more about you.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we see a rise in things like internships, where they can actually

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: sample the job for a period of time ahead of the process.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: When they do get into the process, they want feedback.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: The process needs to be engaging for them.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: They switch off very quickly, especially from a technology perspective,

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: if it's a disengaging process.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But they also want a good experience.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Roughly, we find a third of early careers

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: candidates going through a recruitment process,

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: never hear back from the company they've applied for,

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: not even an acknowledgement that they've applied.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: A third get a straight rejection with absolutely no reason why.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But a third who do get through and have a great experience

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_00]: who may not even get the job do become advocates.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you imagine you've got two thirds of that hiring population

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: who have got a negative feeling about that organisation

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and probably going to tell their friends and other people about that.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So understanding its two way, understanding the need for experience,

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I think is what employers and companies need to embrace.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they also need to embrace the fact that they shouldn't be

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: looking for a graduate to do a specific job or an early

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: careers person to do a specific job.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You've got to think beyond that because you hope

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: they have a career with you.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So what are the skills that they could learn?

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: What are their motivation?

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_00]: What's what is their potential going forward?

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Is is what will enable that person to grow within that organisation

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and for the also the organisation to get more out of the person.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So thinking about skills, I think the final area

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: which we'll probably come on to talk about as well is around diversity

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and making sure that within the graduate sort of intake

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that that reflects the society in which they operate.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So making sure underrepresented groups are part of that,

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: ensuring the process is fair, reducing the bias in the process,

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: whether that's the language that's used to promote the job,

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: whether that's accessibility in the process.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think organisations need to really get their heads around that

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to make sure that their early careers populations reflect

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: how they operate and the world in which we operate.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I also think that many businesses forget about their internal talent

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and equally employees from around a business outside of IT

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: have often been used in resources in things like IT projects.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't see themselves as technical but have so many transferable skills

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that can be leveraged, we can teach the text up later.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So can you explain how internal recruitment strategies could maybe better address

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: some of these critical talent shortages that we're talking about

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and also some of the advantages this approach can offer

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: over some of those external hiring practices that we might see.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I totally agree and it's interesting actually since the pandemic

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: we saw a rise of about three or four times roles being filled internally rather than externally.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So people really promoting what we would call internal talent mobility

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and it makes a lot of sense.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: The stats suggest that once you promote somebody into a different role

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: or move somebody into a different role, that individual is more engaged.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like you're working with them to find a great outcome.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: It also extends their career journey.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: On average, most people are staying within an organization now two years.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously every year beyond that it reduces hiring costs, increases productivity,

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: accelerates performance because that individual already has an understanding

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: of the organization in which they operate.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the other flip side of that as well is the external hiring when you get it wrong

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: can cost not only in terms of dollars to replace but also the impact it has

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: on other people that work with them or for them.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So once you understand what you have internally within your business

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: it's almost like you understand the individual it's less risky than going external.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But to do that obviously you've got to have a really good handle on your internal business.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't just move people around without thinking through what are their skills,

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: what motivates them, how can they be developed and all of these things are measurable.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So rather than having to take gut feel or instinct that you can measure them

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can bring them together with other data sources around the business.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So you've got your job board somewhere, you've got your performance data somewhere else

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but then you've got the insight about the individual.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: If you can bring those things together then you can have some really high quality talent mobility

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: within your organization which benefits not only the organization but also the person.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Another phrase I hear more and more lately is beyond skills.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So when it comes to hiring tech talent what do you think it means to hire beyond skills

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and why is this approach becoming increasingly important in the tech industry?

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Because as I said it's something we seem to be hearing more and more about.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and I think this is a really interesting one.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It goes back to whether you're hiring a person for a job today or to be with you tomorrow as well.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you look at the tech one in particular, a lot of the ads are I need Java skills.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I need something specific and people measure how good you are at Java coding

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think that's kind of okay but it's quite a short-term narrow view of the world

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and interestingly that has driven up certain types of roles in terms of salary

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: because everybody's then looking for exactly that same skill set

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and it also therefore reduces the kind of hiring call of people that you can go for.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: As you said actually earlier most of the tech skills can be learnt or developed.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So we would suggest that actually a better and probably fairer way to approach this

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: is to look at more durable sort of soft skills or human skills

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and then educate the hard skills that you need as appropriately afterwards

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and that means that the person not only could do hopefully the job today

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but they have the ability to do more jobs into the future.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We actually did a piece of research going back to the early careers conversation

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and we found that for early careers candidates there's about 11 human skills

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that are needed to be successful things like being able to adapt to change

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: coping with setbacks or striving to achieve in the role.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you can identify the skills within the person

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you can then think beyond the current job and figure out

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: not only what they can do today but also what can they do in the future

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's as applicable for external hiring as it is internal hiring and internal mobility.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Another problem I think that every business leader is challenged with

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: is their business needs to serve a diverse audience

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and tech teams need to increasingly solve complex problems

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that require diversity of thought different ways of thinking and problem solving

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and for these reasons alone I think diversity in the workplace is more than just a buzzword.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm curious from everything that you're seeing here

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you believe companies can genuinely celebrate and leverage diversity

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to ultimately drive innovation and drive success?

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree. I think it is more than a buzzword

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: but I do believe that for many companies it's a journey

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a journey that they're on and it needs continual focus.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think organizations are moving from talking about diversity

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to actions, to setting targets, to measuring and reviewing their data

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: speaking to their people and also searching for new and different pools of talent

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think for many it's not really built into the fabric of their businesses yet

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's not really how they operate on a day-to-day basis

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: almost unconsciously doing these things across their business

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and therefore human bias and whether we like it or not humans are bias

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: is still impacting both hiring decisions and talent management decisions

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and our view would be organizations would benefit from independent data sources

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: about people that can sit alongside that decision

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and reduce the bias in the process.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a solution that many customers around the world use

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and it helps identify individuals who are best suited to fill a role

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: how well they fit that role.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Part of the solution though is something that we call hidden gems

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: so it identifies the people who are the obvious people for the role

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: but then the hidden gems are the people that they may not have thought of

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but actually have the right attributes to be able to be successful at the role

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and therefore we're broadening the talent pool that they're looking at

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and that consequently can help in terms of diversity

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: if there's a good rate of diverse people within that data set

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: it means that they don't always go to the obvious person for the role

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so we're seeing organizations set goals measure what they do with data

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: review their processes to reduce bias through process

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but also making sure you're investing in tools

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and insight that enables you to make a fairer decision.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have managed to make it 20 minutes of a tech podcast without mentioning AI

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but when you mentioned the word bias

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: it did kind of trigger me to going down that rabbit hole

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and with AI playing an increasing role in recruitment

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: how are you at SHL using things like psychometric science

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and technology to ensure that AI driven hiring processes

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: are indeed fair and effective

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: because we hear a lot about the bad stuff so how are you approaching this?

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean AI has got huge potential but for us it has to be used in a positive and ethical way

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: We think about AI in really three areas of our business

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: so we build AI into our assessment products in a very transparent way

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: so for instance we have a coding solution that looks at somebody's ability to write code

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and rather than just hitting compile at the end

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and they may have made a small mistake in all of the code that are written

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and therefore they fail

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: we actually use AI to look at the flow of the code as they go through

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: so even if compile doesn't work at the end

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: they can still go through the process

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and that actually increases the amount of people who go through by about 40%

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: because a lot of good coders can still get eliminated through doing things the old way

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's the same for language testing and written language testing as well

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so there's kind of like AI at the assessment level

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00]: we also use AI in what we call the candidate experience

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: so how can it guide you through the process almost like a concierge going through the process

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: again going back to the earlier careers conversation

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: important as part of that overall experience that they've gone through

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but also providing structured feedback as they go through

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_00]: so being able to use multiple data sources to give some feedback to the candidate

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: as they go through the process

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: but the kind of bigger one for us is using AI to interpret big data

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: so we are starting to gather tens of thousands of data points for some of our individual customers

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're obviously asking us how can I answer questions off the back of it

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: what are the skills I'm missing in my workforce and who could be a successor for this role

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: so we're using AI to do interpretation of that data again to help support pliering

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and also sort of talent management decisions

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but the AI as I said needs to be transparent

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't agree with AI in a box where you don't understand the algorithm

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and therefore we've got really robust AI governance processes

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: with people insight to make sure it's implemented in a responsible way

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and obviously with almost 50 years worth of building assessments

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: even with a new technology like AI obviously we know what good looks like

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and we know how to ensure integrity in both the science and the software

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and we set a really fly bar because actually getting this wrong is very impactful

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and I do fear that some companies don't have the same level of robustness

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: which is why we're probably seeing increased legislation in some of the countries around the world

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to make sure that AI is being developed and deployed ethically

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, completely agree with you

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and when it comes to AI services there are so many out there now

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that allow candidates to spam recruiters and employers by auto-applying for 100 jobs a week

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and then on the flip slide some employees are using AI to analyse the candidates

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: facial expression, tone, body language and so much more

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: it's almost like both have got their own AI and pitting them against each other

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and with AI playing this increasing role in recruitment I'm curious

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: what impact are you seeing AI having on the future of recruitment

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly in evaluating everything from candidates potential rather than just their current skills

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're right it's been included in lots of different places

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're of the view that organisations want the ability to toggle AI off or toggle AI on

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's not applicable for all markets and it's not applicable for all situations as well

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and as you rightly said in the recruitment process

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: there's other things that AI has been useful which I think is helpful

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: we have this term called proctoring so making sure that the person on the camera

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: is the right person making sure that when they turn up for the job they are the same person

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: for years recruitment processes people have tried to cheat in more way or fall

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_00]: so AI does enable as particularly from a digital experience

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: some very effective ways to make sure that that doesn't happen

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think also in the recruiting process for AI

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the challenge with pure AI driven models

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: whether that be for recruiting or talent management

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: is that they're interpreting or inferring data based on what it's been fed

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: so it's only as good as the data that you're feeding in

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so what we found is if I'm let's say working in a call centre as an example

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been working in a call centre for three years that was my first job

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it probably would infer from that that my interpersonal skills are quite good

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it might infer that I'm reasonably good at problem solving

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: but it has it can't infer anything about my potential

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't know that I could have the skills to be a developer

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it only knows that I've got the skills to do something similar to a call centre role

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think that's the challenge for most of the AI driven engines

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not to say that what they do they can't get so far

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: to certain amount of way down the process of helping recruitment

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: but when it comes to the actual decision

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you need something that's actually measuring what it's designed to measure

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: which is where really assessments come in

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're proven to be able to effectively measure individuals potential

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and their ability and their skill

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and also when you combine with data sources that gets even more and more effective

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: so what we're seeing is organisations are using AI to interpret data

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and if that's a recruitment process

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it could be their CV or the resume picking information out of that

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: their background but then having assessments

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to making a decision

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: to actually measure what they want in the individual

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and then can also stand behind that as well

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: because in many markets recruitment and offering roles is regulated

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of how they can go about

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so I think the combination of the two will be the future

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the combination of AI as well as assessment

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm very conscious that much of our interview today

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: has been looking about looking forward

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and yet when I was doing a little research on you before you came on the podcast

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I learned you've got rich experience with so many big companies

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: for purely back on Microsoft and beyond

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm curious if I ask you to look back

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the Steve Jobs quote you can't join up with lots of looking forward

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: if you look back how was that experience influenced your approach to leadership at SHL

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly in the realm of talent acquisition and development

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I suspect there are a few synergies there but what have you learned?

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean I've been fortunate to work for some great businesses

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and learn a huge amount about people along the way

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the first one that I learned was at the end of the day

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: people are your most important asset

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it's an overused phrase

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but I genuinely genuinely believe it

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: because if you haven't got great people

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you haven't got great businesses

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: very few businesses that can operate completely independent of great people

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: so don't compromise

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: don't compromise on having the best people you can find

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: because that will directly impact your performance

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the performance of your business

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: but there's lots and lots of leadership lessons that I've learned as well

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: which is things like don't be afraid to hire people who are better than yourself

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: it means you raise your game

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and you surround yourself with people

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that's often diverse people as well

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: that have different diverse perspectives of views of what you do

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it just makes you better as a leader

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the other thing around hiring as well you mentioned is

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and I learned this quite a lot of Microsoft

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: is taking calculated hiring risks can pay back

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: hugely

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of organizations look at hiring it

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and try and do what they think is a safe hire into a role

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: but that can only get you so far

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes taking a little bit more risk can get you further

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and again I think that's about really understanding the risk that you're taking

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and making sure you've put the right safety mechanisms in around it

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_00]: but that was certainly something at Microsoft that we did a lot

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the other thing is from a leadership perspective

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: is being authentic again

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: it's used to get talked about quite a bit and it's come back again now

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know being yourself at work

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you work a long time and if you're trying to be somebody else

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that's going to be quite tiring

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: so being authentic and also having fun

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think is really important

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: we're working five days a week

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of people work hard

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of people turn up to do a great job

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: enjoying yourself at work is also an important part of what we all do

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with everything you said there

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the first part reminds me of the old saying

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're the smartest person in the room

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you're in the wrong room

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: also the importance of having fun

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and as we finish the podcast

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it's time for me to have a bit of fun with you now

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I always ask my guests

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: one of two questions

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: we have a Spotify playlist

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: where you can add a song that means something to you

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: where our listeners can check out

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: guilty pleasures are allowed

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: or a book that we can add to an Amazon wishlist

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that you recommend

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: all I'm going to ask is

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: what would you like to leave and work?

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I will leave a song with you if that's okay

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_00]: oh yes

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and actually picking one

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: for somebody who loves music

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I really love my music

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_00]: picking one is hard

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: so I'm going to pick one of my favorites if that's okay

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: absolutely

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: it's kind of

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: everybody has this sort of deep and meaningful songs

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're happy songs

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and this is one of my happy songs

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and hopefully it's not on your playlist

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't checked

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but imagine dragons

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm on top of the world

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and the reason why

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I say that is

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: family is really important to me

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and we go on an annual sort of family ski holiday

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and this is kind of our ski song

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: which is obviously appropriate when you're on the top of a mountain

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: so that's one reason

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and the other reason is

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: it reminds me of those kind of days at work

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: where you've just come back

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and you feel like

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you've had a great day

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you've achieved some great things

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you've made a difference

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and you feel like you're on top of the world

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah absolutely love that

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: what a great choice

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I wish we'd do a big fist bump in the air

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: like Judd Nelson at the end of the breakfast club

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but I will get that added to our Spotify playlist

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously we covered a lot of ground today

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: so if anybody wants to find out more about you

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: your team

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: anything we discussed

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: well do you like to point everyone listening

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: to find out more information about SHL

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah visit the website

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: or connect with us in any which way

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: your find is on all the social medias as well

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: well for me this was one of those podcast episodes

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that had it all we covered

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the social and business impact of early career recruitment

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01]: how internal recruitment can solve some of those critical talent problems

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: especially in this tech talent shortage that we've got

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: but also remembering to hire beyond skills for tech talent

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and celebrate the value of diversity in the workplace

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and even left me with a great tune

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: thanks for joining me today Andy

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: thanks Neil

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: so how can your organization leverage the insights

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01]: from today's discussion

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: to ultimately build a stronger

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and more resilient workforce

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I think as Andy highlighted today

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the key lies in embracing a comprehensive approach

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to talent acquisition and management

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: one that prioritizes early career recruitment

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: internal mobility

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and the development of human centric skills

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and SHL's evolution into this talent intelligence platform

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: underscores the importance of using data driven insights

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: to guide these efforts

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to ensure that organizations not only attract top talent

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: but also retain and develop it effectively

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and finally reflecting on this conversation today

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: consider how your company can integrate these strategies

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and how it can address the challenges of this global talent shortage

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and the rapidly changing demands of the job market

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe try embracing the potential of AI

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and to enhance your recruitment processes

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: but always ensure that it's used transparently and ethically

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that was the big message from me

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but what about your experiences, your insights, your concerns

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the things that excite you

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: the things that keep you awake at night

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: let me know

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: techblogwriteroutlook.com

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: send me a DM on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: just at Neil C Hughes

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to keep this conversation going

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: because I think it's something that impacts each and every one of us

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: but that is it for today

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: so thank you for listening as always

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and until next time

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: don't be a stranger