3052: How Hedy is Transforming How Kids Learn to Code

[00:00:03] How can we make programming accessible and engaging for the next generation, regardless

[00:00:10] of their background, the country they live, or the native language that they speak? Well

[00:00:16] today I want to explore this very question with my guest today. Her name is Feline Hermans.

[00:00:22] She's the visionary behind a company called Hedy, which is essentially a platform that is

[00:00:28] transforming how kids learn to code. And with over half a million users, Hedy is breaking

[00:00:35] new ground by offering a free and open source programming environment that is tailored to

[00:00:41] children as young as 10. And it's not just a tool though, with translations in over 60

[00:00:47] languages all powered by a dedicated community of volunteers. But my guest isn't just a creator,

[00:00:54] she's a professor of computer science education and also a high school teacher. And her work

[00:01:02] is fueled by a passion for making programming education more inclusive, more effective, and

[00:01:09] more fun. And after dedicating over a decade to finding better ways to introduce young learners

[00:01:16] to the world of coding in a way that makes it an experience that resonates both culturally

[00:01:22] as it does linguistically. She's incredibly inspiring. So today I've invited her to join me on the

[00:01:29] podcast, share some of her insights on why we must radically change how we teach programming,

[00:01:35] the role that natural languages play in shaping the future of coding, and also offer some practical

[00:01:42] advice to parents out there that are hopefully going to be listening today that are eager to

[00:01:47] guide their children into this essential skill set. So what does the future of programming and

[00:01:54] education look like? And how can we prepare our children for it? This is where I'm going to invite

[00:02:00] you to join me and my guest today in sunny Amsterdam, where we're going to talk about all this and much

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[00:03:52] with a podcast ready to take the world by storm. Let's do it together. But enough from me. Let me

[00:03:57] beam your ears all the way to Amsterdam to start this conversation now.

[00:04:02] So a massive warm welcome to the show. Can you tell everyone listening a little about

[00:04:07] who you are and what you do?

[00:04:09] Yes, absolutely. My name is Felina Hermans. I'm a professor of computer science education

[00:04:14] at Vue Amsterdam, which is a university in Amsterdam. And in addition to being a university

[00:04:19] professor, I'm also a middle school teacher, I should say. So I teach seventh grade, which in my

[00:04:24] country is high school, but I think where many people are, this is considered middle school.

[00:04:28] So one day a week, I teach actual students and middle schoolers programming. Everything I do

[00:04:34] is related to programming education.

[00:04:37] And you've missed something out there because you do all of that, but you've also created a

[00:04:41] platform that has evolved since its inception to reach 500,000 monthly users, which is a huge

[00:04:47] achievement. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and what inspired you to create this?

[00:04:51] Yeah, absolutely. So for me, that's very related to teaching these middle schoolers. So I've been

[00:04:55] teaching grade seven for a very long time, this age group for over 10 years. And I started to teach

[00:05:03] them Python. And Python is a professional programming language, of course, isn't really meant for 12

[00:05:08] year olds. And I really saw them struggle with it. It's really too hard. The error messages are very

[00:05:15] complex. Everything is in English, which isn't my first language. And it's not the first language of the

[00:05:20] kids either. So they were struggling and struggling. And I thought, well, you know, I'm not just a

[00:05:24] teacher. I am actually a programmer. I have a PhD in software engineering. So let me create something

[00:05:30] that is simpler, like a baby Python for them, where error messages are in Dutch, where you can translate

[00:05:35] everything. And not just the translation was important, but also this step-by-step learning where

[00:05:41] you don't have to learn all concepts at once. First, we do a simple version of print,

[00:05:45] like you just do print and then not quotes and not brackets, just a simple version.

[00:05:50] And then we expand this step-by-step. So my goal really was over a Christmas break five years ago to

[00:05:56] build a small website for only my own students. And as you pointed out, this has gotten a little bit

[00:06:03] out of hand. We now support, I think, 63 different languages. And we have hundreds of thousands of

[00:06:10] users around the world. Yeah. Oops. My pet project escaped the lab.

[00:06:16] Wow. You've created a monster there. And I love the whole story behind it and how it's evolved to

[00:06:21] over 60 languages, you've said there. Ultimately, it's all about transforming the way we teach

[00:06:27] programming to kids. And I think that is just inspiration on its own. So can you dig a little

[00:06:32] bit deeper? Tell me how you address the challenges of traditional programming in programming education that

[00:06:39] I'm sure you've come across those challenges firsthand and how you're overcoming that because

[00:06:44] it really is inspiring. Absolutely. So I think there's really a lot of challenges in introductory

[00:06:50] programming and a lot of introductory programming comes from the university. And I think one of the

[00:06:54] assumptions that we've had for a long time is that sort of what works for university students will

[00:07:00] also work for kids that are younger. And of course, not all of that is true. And a lot of the

[00:07:07] assumptions, let's take one assumption, for example. I think one assumption that we have in

[00:07:12] university level students is they want to learn programming, right? Because they subscribe to a

[00:07:17] computer science or a related field. So they have an interest in programming. I don't think that is

[00:07:22] necessarily true for all computer science students now. But this is still the way professors think.

[00:07:27] And something that flows from that is that, well, it doesn't really matter what we program,

[00:07:32] right? Because there's an intrinsic motivation in programming. So we can do exercises that I'm sure

[00:07:37] many people have seen, like print all prime numbers, right? Or reverse this string or search the longest

[00:07:44] alphabetical substring in this text file, which is a bit boring, right? It's fun if you want to learn

[00:07:51] programming. But if you are not sure if you want to learn programming, or if you're not really sure what

[00:07:57] programming is for, then these types of exercises don't really convey why programming is fun. Like

[00:08:03] who cares about printing prime numbers? And who cares about reversing a string? That is not helping.

[00:08:09] So I think one of the things that we are doing with the platform is from the Hedi platform is from the

[00:08:14] beginning trying to have exercises where we explain why programming is useful and why programming is fun.

[00:08:21] So we have little, like one of our exercises is a little interactive story where you ask,

[00:08:27] what is your name? And then you can say Hank or Neil or Felina. And then everywhere in the story,

[00:08:32] this name gets replaced. And then that means you can make the same story about your mom or your dad

[00:08:37] or your neighbor. You see, look, it is fun to make a story that has some interactivity. And later,

[00:08:43] of course, this interactivity is changed into, hey, do you want to have a story with a good or bad ending?

[00:08:49] And this is how we introduce an if statement. Whereas sometimes in traditional programming

[00:08:53] exercises, I've seen exercises that are like requiring of a student to program something

[00:08:59] that is an x is two. If x is odd, then like, why are we doing this? I mean, I'm setting this fixed

[00:09:08] value. This doesn't really help me understand what an if statement is for. So we try to integrate this

[00:09:13] into exercises that show what programming can be and why certain programming concepts like a loop or

[00:09:20] an if statement, why they make sense. And then you see that for some students, it's just like, ah,

[00:09:24] yes, of course, I want to have the story with a good or a bad ending, or I want to have

[00:09:28] different types of main characters in my story. So then it starts to make more sense.

[00:09:34] And as you said, a few moments ago, translated into more than 60 languages, including Chinese,

[00:09:40] Arabic and Spanish. And I'm curious, how do natural languages and cultural differences

[00:09:46] influence the way that children learn programming? Anything you've noticed here?

[00:09:51] Yeah, this is a great question. So there was already some research, not even mine,

[00:09:55] but research that was done right before me in a visual programming language from Scratch,

[00:09:59] where the researchers showed that if kids program in their own native language, they learn concept,

[00:10:05] they learn more concepts and then learn them faster, which is like on the one hand side,

[00:10:09] because of course it is, right? Of course it's easier for you English native speakers. Maybe it's

[00:10:15] very hard to appreciate, but me, a non-English speaker, I really appreciate that stuff, even though

[00:10:20] my English is quite good, even still in Dutch, everything is easier. So of course it is easier in

[00:10:26] your own language. But on the other hand, most programming languages are in English, right?

[00:10:32] Even educational languages are very often in English if they're textual. So there's also this

[00:10:37] assumption that, ah, it is just a few words, just maybe 30 keywords. How hard can it be to just learn

[00:10:45] the language? But we have seen also in our research that there are big differences, not just in learning,

[00:10:51] as these other researchers have already found, which you put the paper in the show notes as well,

[00:10:56] but also in terms of like cultural feeling at home-ness, right? I don't have a better word for it,

[00:11:04] but this feeling that, hey, programming isn't just a world of English, I can also program in my own

[00:11:11] language. And we're seeing an interesting uptake in many bilingual places. Botswana, for example,

[00:11:16] which used to be British, so most kids there are bilingual. Puerto Rico is not a region where

[00:11:22] Heidi is big in use. And you see, so there is not about ease of learning. It's much more that

[00:11:28] not everyone loves English, right? For cultural reasons. So people in Botswana,

[00:11:34] in Puerto Rico or other places are sort of forced if they teach programming to do it in English.

[00:11:39] And that also teaches students that English is the language of technology. English is the language of

[00:11:44] the future, right? And this is maybe not a message that those teachers really feel and embrace. So

[00:11:51] for them, being able to teach programming in Spanish or in Setswana or in Arabic or in Chinese shows them,

[00:11:57] look, kids, our language is also the language of technology. We do not have to learn English.

[00:12:03] We can do stuff in our own way. And specifically in Botswana, we've done a really big experiment

[00:12:08] nationwide with 500 schools where half of the students did it in English and half of the students

[00:12:15] did the same course material in Setswana, which is their language. And then we saw that kids that

[00:12:19] were programming in Setswana built bigger programs, built more programs, and also showed a greater

[00:12:24] interest in a future career in programming, not because of learning reasons, because they're all

[00:12:29] bilingual, but probably because of reasons like, oh, I'm excited about this. And there we didn't just

[00:12:35] change the language. We also worked together with local teachers to change the cultural context.

[00:12:40] So to make, we have a restaurant example, for example, which for us is a McDonald's. But they're

[00:12:46] like, ah, you know, we don't have a McDonald's. We know it, of course, but it's not something we

[00:12:50] typically do with kids. So they made like Botswana meatballs and all sorts of foods that would be much

[00:12:57] more recognizable to kids. And that is probably going to make a big difference in their enthusiasm.

[00:13:02] I see how this relates to me and my world.

[00:13:07] Wow. It's just such a powerful message that you're delivering here. The figures speak for

[00:13:12] themselves, more than 500,000 monthly users from all around the world. It just really is inspiring.

[00:13:19] I'm curious, are there any success stories or feedback from parents and teachers from around

[00:13:24] the world that you get to hear about that have used a platform to teach children programming skills?

[00:13:30] And what impacts have you seen on young learners yourself too?

[00:13:34] Yeah, so absolutely. So we get a lot of emails, sometimes also, of course, we get emails about

[00:13:39] bugs. Hey, just the other day, we changed something to the teacher backhand. Like,

[00:13:44] hey, this one field has disappeared. We're like, oops, you know, we overhauled some things.

[00:13:48] So we also get those types of emails, but we also really get enthusiastic emails from around the

[00:13:53] world. I remember this one email we got from Pakistan, where a teacher said,

[00:13:56] I've been teaching programming to 16, 17 year olds for a very long time. I used to do Python,

[00:14:02] but kids were struggling. And now we have switched from Python to Hedy. And he said,

[00:14:07] I've never seen more engagement in my classroom after, before they switch, after we switch,

[00:14:13] there was so much more enthusiasm because, because of the step-by system, it became so much more

[00:14:19] realistic for students to quickly make something, right? Even in the first levels that we have,

[00:14:25] where you have like, no, not even variables. You don't have variables, you don't have loops,

[00:14:30] you don't have conditions, but you can create a story. You can create a drawing. You can create music

[00:14:35] with a song or with, we have integration with Google speech API. So you can have the stories read

[00:14:41] aloud. So you can make something that's very cool with very few programming concepts. And that really

[00:14:47] gets kids sort of hooked. Like, this is cool. Now I'm excited to learn more. So yeah, we do get

[00:14:54] these stories and pictures always, I always love that we get pictures all around the world, classrooms

[00:15:00] that look on the one hand side, exactly like mine, right? Like a classroom. But also the kids are

[00:15:06] different because they have different skin colors and have different types of clothing, different types

[00:15:11] of artifacts. Or you're like, oh, that is a classroom somewhere totally different, but they're also

[00:15:16] using my platform, which I also still use with my own seventh graders.

[00:15:20] And as a professor and a high school teacher, what differences are you noticing between teaching

[00:15:27] programming to younger students versus maybe university level students? And has this helped

[00:15:33] shaped your approach at Hedy too?

[00:15:36] Yes. So that's a very interesting question. So I do think like mostly the influence has been

[00:15:41] learning from the seventh grade, bringing that to university. Because with the stereotype that we

[00:15:47] talked about before, that students in a computer science program want to learn programming, I think

[00:15:52] that is, maybe it was true when I was a student, that only computer nerds mix computer science, right? In

[00:15:59] the 90s, in the 2000s. But now there's a lot of students picking computer science, even in uni,

[00:16:05] because they think it's a good career. They used to go maybe into medicine or law, but now the vibe is

[00:16:11] computing is a good career. So that's why students go there. And then maybe they don't know programming,

[00:16:16] or they don't know if they like it. So I think a lot of this, the responsibility that you have with

[00:16:21] seventh graders to explain why this is fun and why this is useful, I think it's also very much

[00:16:27] shapes my uni level teaching in the sense that there are also more focusing on doing realistic data

[00:16:34] analysis and not some random text file with an exercise that doesn't make sense. And also in

[00:16:39] terms of motivation, I think that like, if your teaching is not great at the university, the 18

[00:16:46] year olds don't understand anything, but they don't complain to you, right? They assume that you are

[00:16:50] explaining it well. They go to their dorm and they cry like, oh, this is so hard. I'll pick another

[00:16:55] major. But a 12 year old that's confused and frustrated will tell you, right? They will say,

[00:17:00] I understand. Teacher, I understood nothing. It's like nothing, nothing. Can you name one thing

[00:17:07] that you remember from last week? I understood. What they miss? Like, this is good feedback,

[00:17:12] even though it hurts. This is good feedback, right? This will help you to make the steps even smaller

[00:17:19] and to also look at the students that indeed didn't understand anything last week. Those students also

[00:17:25] exist in university that are trying their best, but that have understood nothing of what you said.

[00:17:30] So the level of feedback is just also a 12 year old. They're hard, right? They have no,

[00:17:39] in my country, we would say they don't take any paper in front of the mouth, right? So they just know

[00:17:45] everything, which can be good, even though it also hurts.

[00:17:48] Absolutely love it. And I think another problem that the tech industry has at the moment is if we're all

[00:17:53] serious about solving complex problems, we need diversity of thought. We need different ways of

[00:17:59] thinking. And we need to encourage more women into tech, particularly starting with girls and also

[00:18:05] bringing people in from a diverse set of backgrounds as well. So what are some of the biggest challenges

[00:18:11] that you've seen in promoting programming education for children to bring in more people from different

[00:18:17] backgrounds? And how do you think we can overcome some of these barriers on a global scale?

[00:18:22] Yeah, that's a great question. That is really also a hard question. But one of the things I've seen is that

[00:18:31] some programmers really like the fact that programming is hard, right? Because they have learned it and it

[00:18:37] makes them smart that they can do it. So maybe they're not at the deepest level, not even buying into the

[00:18:43] notion that reprogramming is for everyone, right? So they like something like, let's say C or C++ is a good

[00:18:50] language because it's hard. You have to do your own memory management. This will toughen you up, right?

[00:18:55] This will make a man out of you, so to say. So if you want to make languages easier, which is one of the

[00:19:01] things that I've been doing with Hedy, but even if in a university context, you would argue, which I've also

[00:19:06] been present in many of those meetings, going from C to Python, then some people will reject because that

[00:19:13] will make it easier. And making it easier is not inherently a good thing because we have this culture of

[00:19:19] masculinity and hard things, you know, are good. So that I think is one of the biggest challenges that

[00:19:26] we have to accept the fact that if we want to have more people in, we shouldn't stress how hard it is,

[00:19:34] or we should stress different things. Like programming is really hard, right? I still agree with that.

[00:19:39] We don't have to dumb it down, but the hard memory management isn't the hard part that is

[00:19:44] hard, right? The hard part is the people part, having the right requirements and doing maintenance

[00:19:50] and refactoring work, which is all people-y work. But people-y work is weak and easy, and the hard

[00:19:56] work is the machine work that we want to emphasize. So I think that cultural issue, and I don't have a

[00:20:02] solution, sadly, but that cultural issue is really something we need to address, that we need to

[00:20:08] realign what work do we value, and the work that we should value more, if we want to have more

[00:20:14] diversity, is the people-y work that now just isn't seen as work.

[00:20:21] A question I've got to ask, we've done so well getting this far into the podcast without

[00:20:25] mentioning AI, but because it's so hard, a lot of people are going to be leaning on Gen AI,

[00:20:31] because it can be a hugely helpful tool for developers, but equally it could make them

[00:20:36] lazy and pick up bad habits, et cetera. Where do you stand on the usage of Gen AI right now,

[00:20:43] from what you're seeing?

[00:20:45] I mean, this is a whole other episode, man. There's so much to say about.

[00:20:51] So if you see AI like a spell checker in Word, if you have that type of AI in mind, I think

[00:20:58] that's actually good, and we programmers, we've been dealing with that for a long time, right?

[00:21:02] All our IDEs have built-in refactoring tools, we have in Python, you have optional typing,

[00:21:07] right? You have type hints like warning, this is probably not going to do what you expect it to

[00:21:12] do. Oh, here's an uncaught exception. So that level of AI actually, I think, is good,

[00:21:17] and that prevents mistakes. But the level of AI that some people, of course, are promoting,

[00:21:23] that are saying, oh, build me a web app to do this, and then a sea of code rolls out,

[00:21:28] like one person I really appreciate in this space is Grady Bush. He's one of the authors of UML,

[00:21:33] and he's very critical, I think, for good reasons about that level of AI use. He says, well,

[00:21:39] now you have some sort of dependency that next time you want this, you get the same code. So you should

[00:21:44] actually check in your prompts into version control, right? So you can go back, and who is going to

[00:21:50] maintain this legacy? So unless we get at a level that we are for machine code, right? Where, yeah,

[00:21:56] yeah, yes, I know my compiler generates machine code, and I never look at it. I trust the compiler.

[00:22:01] That level of abstraction is gone. Unless we are there, and we are not there, then you still have

[00:22:08] to deal with the code. You still have to deal with the security vulnerabilities that might be in there,

[00:22:13] that it generates code that you don't understand, and you are now the author, let alone all the other

[00:22:19] people in your team do not understand this. How are you going to change it? How are you going to do

[00:22:24] refactoring? What naming does the AI choose, right? Naming is one of the hardest problems in computer

[00:22:29] science. So now your AI is naming your variables for you, and in many cases, coming back to the

[00:22:34] localization, variable names are not in English. They might be in birds or Chinese in many code bases.

[00:22:39] So these are all issues. And then I haven't even talked about climate change, right? Always people

[00:22:46] like AI, AI, climate change, right? My house is literally under sea level. Like, I am speaking to you now

[00:22:52] from minus five meters in the sea. I do not want the climate impact of AI. Maybe for some things like

[00:23:00] breast cancer detection, okay, I can do 10 centimeters for that. Like, I'm willing to pay

[00:23:07] for that with climate change. But do we really need AI to generate Java? Aren't there more efficient

[00:23:15] ways if we want to generate Java to do this from a specification that is precise with a precise

[00:23:22] transformation algorithm or from natural language with more precise translation algorithms? We have

[00:23:27] already, as software engineering research, worked on a lot of technologies actually to do code generation

[00:23:34] in more efficient and precise and traceable ways. So is AI really here the solution? Or is it maybe just

[00:23:41] a little bit of Silicon Valley hype coming from people that are set to make money from this?

[00:23:48] Again, so many powerful points there. And I think, as you said, it's a whole other episode that we

[00:23:55] could talk about. And I think maybe we might have to get you back on next year to discuss some of those

[00:24:01] things as it continues to evolve. Because we don't talk about some of the points you made there enough,

[00:24:05] in my opinion. And we will also have a lot of business leaders listening that are also parents who

[00:24:11] might not have a background in technology, but they want to support their children to learning

[00:24:17] code and programming, etc. So any advice that you would give them that to anyone that doesn't have

[00:24:23] that technical background, but they want to encourage and support their kids? Any advice there?

[00:24:27] Yeah, so I would definitely say check out Hattie, our platform. It is free. You can also make a free

[00:24:33] teacher account, which also opens to parents. We don't check if you're a real teacher, you can be a

[00:24:38] parent. And so you can learn along with your kids. And it is really an accessible platform. So it

[00:24:44] really starts with, hey, we're simply going to print your name. It has a built-in lesson plan. So you

[00:24:50] don't have to figure out how to teach it. You can just say to the kids, here are the lessons, you can

[00:24:54] read them. We take them through the system in all those different translated languages. So if you do

[00:25:00] want to encourage your kids to start programming, then this might be something to check out,

[00:25:04] where we have all those different modalities that I talked about before. Is your kid into drawing?

[00:25:10] We're going to make a drawing. Is your kid into music? We're going to make songs. Is your kid

[00:25:15] into storytelling? We're going to make interactive stories. These are things like for most kids,

[00:25:21] one of those three things will be something that they're already somewhat interested in. And probably

[00:25:26] for parents also, they are interested in stories. They do read books with their kids or music

[00:25:31] or drawing. So that is also a space where you can connect with your kids. Because if they draw

[00:25:37] something cool, then you immediately also understand the results, which is what I'm seeing sometimes with

[00:25:42] other platforms that, for example, allow kids to create games. Then it's harder for parents and

[00:25:48] sometimes also for teachers, by the way, to really be sort of impressed or enthusiastic about what the

[00:25:54] kids created. I just talked with a computer science teacher the other day and he said, yeah, all the kids

[00:26:00] want to create a cookie clicker. This is a type of game that maybe some parents are familiar with.

[00:26:06] The game is you have to click the cookie very quickly and they get points. And then with those

[00:26:10] points, you can buy an auto clicker that then clicks the cookie quicker and then you make more money.

[00:26:16] It's teaching them capitalism. So teachers and parents, they don't really love cookie clickers,

[00:26:23] right? We don't like, oh, you built this cool game that has no goal.

[00:26:29] So if you have a modality that's a little bit more resonated with all people like me,

[00:26:34] then that is also going to encourage the enthusiasm. And we know that that is such a big driver for kids'

[00:26:40] interest, specifically also girls' interest, that if your parents think what you're doing is cool or

[00:26:47] valuable, then you're like, this is cool. Like not if they're older teenagers, but younger kids,

[00:26:53] if you create something like, look, mom, I made this digital drawing for you. Then if the parent

[00:26:58] isn't impressed, then that makes a big difference. So that is something that, yeah, check out our

[00:27:04] platform. It's entirely free. It's also open source. So if there's people that are programmers

[00:27:08] that are listening, like, oh, this sounds like a cool open source project I would work on.

[00:27:13] Please also, we are on GitHub. We have a Discord where you can connect with the team. So if you want to

[00:27:17] contribute and also use it for your kids, you're very welcome. We have like a hundred open issues.

[00:27:23] Well, I can hear light bulb moments going off around the world. And I would urge any parent

[00:27:28] listening to at least give it a try. See if you can get your kids engaged with this technology. It

[00:27:34] really is a great opportunity. And as we look further ahead, how do you see the future of programming,

[00:27:41] programming education in particular, evolving, particularly with the next generation of computing

[00:27:46] technologies almost waiting on the horizon? I won't take you down the quantum rabbit hole today,

[00:27:51] but how do you see it all evolving?

[00:27:54] Yeah. So I think in this new world, some thought leaders are also saying, even thought leaders from

[00:27:59] like the computing space, oh, I know programming is not necessary anymore because of AI or because of

[00:28:07] whatever reasons. But I think it's now with more computing, it's even more important for everyone,

[00:28:14] for all kids and adults, but specifically also for kids to have some sort of understanding of what

[00:28:21] computers can do and also still what they cannot do. So I hope that this AI hype is going to power and

[00:28:28] not take away the need or the publicly seen need from adults that kids learn programming. Because if a

[00:28:36] system magically can create an essay for you, how does that work? And when do you want to use it?

[00:28:43] And when do you not want to use it? I had my older high schoolers a few years ago,

[00:28:47] build their own tiny chat GPT that trains on their own emails, where, you know, use some libraries,

[00:28:53] but in the basis they built their own GPT and it could sort of spew out their own emails.

[00:28:59] And that was a very, very useful lesson to them. A, because they were like, hey, all my emails are still

[00:29:06] on the internet. I don't talk like this anymore. I would like to remove this data. Like, ha,

[00:29:10] you learned a variable lesson. That wasn't even the lesson I was trying to teach you, but yay,

[00:29:15] that is also a lesson. But also they showed, I showed them that just with a little bit of Python,

[00:29:21] you can create something that, you know, creates like reasonable sounding sentences

[00:29:27] that have no meaning, that aren't really doing anything. So I think there's like, I would like all adults in the world to have to try this,

[00:29:37] to see how easy it is to build something that creates reasonably sounding, but ultimately senseless sentences.

[00:29:47] And as a professor of computer science education, high school computer science teacher,

[00:29:53] and behind the hugely successful Heady, there's a huge pressure on us all to be in a state of continuous learning.

[00:30:00] But as well with so much experience and being so far ahead there, I've got to ask, how or where do you self-educate?

[00:30:07] How do you keep up to speed in this fast-moving world of technological change?

[00:30:12] Any tips you can offer on how you self-educate there?

[00:30:15] Yeah, definitely. So this is going to be sounding a little bit like a lunatic,

[00:30:20] but I really prefer reading books, ideally paper books or on an e-book reader.

[00:30:27] I have recently, not even very long ago, like a few months ago, deleted all apps from my phone that I don't need.

[00:30:33] So no more browser, no scrolling on Facebook or other socials.

[00:30:37] I really try to be very deliberate about my media diets.

[00:30:41] I have a few newsletters that I subscribe to that I read on my phone and otherwise books.

[00:30:47] And I think not even technology books.

[00:30:50] When I was younger, I was really like, I want to learn Rust and Dart.

[00:30:53] I want to learn all these programming languages to stay up to date.

[00:30:56] And as I age, I know I sound like an old person now, I think there's actually more sense in reading philosophy books or reading history books, right?

[00:31:09] Because a lot of this has happened before.

[00:31:12] I recently read a book that I really, really liked.

[00:31:15] It's called Blood and the Machine.

[00:31:16] And it's about resistance, sometimes violence resistance against industrialization in the 18 and 1900s.

[00:31:24] And if you read that book, you learn so much more about AI than by reading books that have occurred,

[00:31:32] like it appeared the last five or 10 years about AI,

[00:31:35] because it really describes also the social impact and the changes in people's lives

[00:31:40] and their relationship with work and their relationship with technology.

[00:31:43] So recently, I've really picked up an interest in reading books that have these broad views on society and technology,

[00:31:51] rather than just the, oh, this is the hype of the day.

[00:31:56] Because, you know, after two years, then there's another hype.

[00:32:00] So that's sort of my tip.

[00:32:02] Yeah, fantastic advice.

[00:32:04] I echo everything you said there.

[00:32:05] I too, the older I get, I start to realize that everything happens in cycles.

[00:32:10] And we've kind of been here again and again and again.

[00:32:13] I have this lecture that I gave about AI and education.

[00:32:17] And then I have people guess when a learning machine was first talked about in Dutch newspapers

[00:32:24] that you can all crawl within a nice little Python script.

[00:32:26] And the answer there is 1889.

[00:32:29] And this was a machine that was supposedly used to teach biking to kids

[00:32:35] so that you don't have to teach them biking anymore.

[00:32:39] 1898.

[00:32:40] And of course, you know, 120 years later, we still teach our children to bike.

[00:32:45] Because teaching your kid to bike is such a bonding moment, right?

[00:32:50] This is such a special once or twice in a lifetime event.

[00:32:54] Of course, we're going to outsource that to a machine.

[00:32:56] That is wicked.

[00:32:57] And I have this old newspaper and then people are like, people have thought about this before

[00:33:02] a long time ago.

[00:33:03] That's a nice eye opening.

[00:33:05] And I think that's a perfect moment to end on.

[00:33:08] But before I let you go, I'm hoping we've inspired a lot of people listening around the

[00:33:12] world today.

[00:33:13] So where is the best place for listeners to find you, your team online and find out more

[00:33:18] information about Hedi or indeed anything we talked about today?

[00:33:22] Where would you like to point them?

[00:33:23] Yes.

[00:33:24] So if you go to Hedi.org, you can start programming right away.

[00:33:27] So if you want to go there with your kid, that is the easiest way.

[00:33:30] If you're interested in maybe joining our team as a translator or a teacher or a programming,

[00:33:36] the best URL is very easy.

[00:33:38] It is Hedi.org slash join.

[00:33:40] Right.

[00:33:40] Those three categories have their own page to get started straight away.

[00:33:44] Well, I'll add links to everything so people can find that nice and easily.

[00:33:48] And just love chatting with you today about why we need to radically transform how we teach

[00:33:53] kids programming languages to prepare them for the next wave of computing and the role

[00:33:58] of natural languages and culture and the role that that is playing in forging the future

[00:34:02] of programming.

[00:34:03] So many great messages in there.

[00:34:05] And also how every parent can encourage a child to learn coding skills.

[00:34:10] It's no stone or left unturned.

[00:34:12] I'd love to see how people get on using the platform.

[00:34:14] I encourage everyone to feedback to me as well.

[00:34:17] But more than anything, just thank you for bringing this topic to life today.

[00:34:20] Yeah.

[00:34:20] Thanks for having me.

[00:34:21] It's been great.

[00:34:24] So what can we take from our conversation today?

[00:34:27] For me, I think at its core, Hedi is more than just a platform.

[00:34:32] It's a testament to the power of innovative education in opening doors for young minds everywhere.

[00:34:39] And today we explored how programming in native languages can enhance learning, the importance

[00:34:47] of culturally relevant teaching and that pressing need to rethink traditional programming education.

[00:34:54] And I think my guest journey just underscores that critical role that educators, parents and

[00:34:59] technologies collectively play in preparing the next generation for a future where coding is

[00:35:07] as fundamental as reading or math.

[00:35:10] And as you personally reflect on our discussion today, consider how you might support or encourage

[00:35:17] a child's journey into the world of programming.

[00:35:20] What small steps can you take to make that learning experience not just accessible, but truly engaging

[00:35:27] and meaningful?

[00:35:29] Well, a big thank you for joining me today on this exploration of into the future of programming

[00:35:35] education.

[00:35:36] And I hope you're inspired and you will play a part in shaping it.

[00:35:41] Remember, you can email me techblogwriteroutlook.com.

[00:35:44] Connect with me on LinkedIn, just at Neil C.

[00:35:46] Hughes.

[00:35:46] Love to hear your thoughts on this.

[00:35:48] But I have taken far too much of your time up already today.

[00:35:52] So I'm going to prepare for tomorrow's guest.

[00:35:54] And hopefully I look forward to speaking with you all again tomorrow morning.

[00:35:58] Bye for now.