3056: Rethinking Tech Education in the AI Era with Pluralsight

[00:00:03] How are organisations tackling the tech skills gap in a world where digital transformation

[00:00:09] is accelerating at breakneck speed? Well, on today's episode, I'm thrilled to be sitting

[00:00:16] down with Drew Furman at Pluralsight, a company that's deeply invested in upskilling tech

[00:00:24] professionals and helping organisations stay ahead in this rapidly evolving landscape.

[00:00:30] And Pluralsight's focus on personalised learning, hands-on labs and continuous development is

[00:00:37] playing a crucial role in reshaping how we think about tech education. And let's be honest,

[00:00:43] this couldn't come at a more critical time. So today, Drew and I will explore the findings

[00:00:49] from Pluralsight's 2024 technical research report, which highlights the growing demand

[00:00:56] for skills in cyber security and cloud computing, surpassing even AI and machine learning. So

[00:01:03] a slightly different narrative to one that we're seeing in our newsfeeds. And we'll also talk

[00:01:07] about why upskilling your existing workforce can be more cost effective than hiring new talent.

[00:01:14] In fact, a strategy that could save your business up to 10,000 per employee. But the big question,

[00:01:20] how does Pluralsight help companies connect individual skill development to larger organisational goals?

[00:01:28] And what role does AI play in creating personalised learning experiences that really stick?

[00:01:35] So I invite you to join us today as we challenge traditional ideas around career development.

[00:01:40] And instead of climbing the corporate ladder in a linear fashion,

[00:01:44] Drew's going to be introducing us to the idea of a career playground where tech professionals can

[00:01:50] move literally, explore new opportunities and continuously build their skills.

[00:01:56] So question for you all, how does creating a sustainable learning culture help organisations

[00:02:02] reach a critical mass of employees who are fluent in new technologies?

[00:02:07] Well, that's what we're going to find out today. But enough for me, it's time for me to beam your

[00:02:11] ears all the way to the US, where Drew is waiting to speak with us today.

[00:02:16] So a massive warm welcome to the show. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

[00:02:23] Yeah, thanks for having me, Neil. Yes, I'm Drew Fearmint. I'm VP of Enterprise Strategy at Pluralsight.

[00:02:28] So a little about Pluralsight. So we're an online technology education platform.

[00:02:33] You were used by individuals, enterprises, you know, to improve their technology skills,

[00:02:38] everything from AI to Z shell, right? So and we're seeing a lot of companies investing just a ton of money in technology.

[00:02:47] And I'm witnessing firsthand how this skills gap is really negatively impacting their return on those investments, right?

[00:02:54] So like, for example, a public cloud in user spending, it's crazy to think how fast it's going.

[00:03:01] It's like 20% year over year expected to be $1 trillion by the end of the decade.

[00:03:06] But at the same time, you got like 50% of all IT cloud migrations are delayed two years,

[00:03:13] like 78% of abandoned projects due to skills gap, 85% say lack of cloud skills impacting business goals, right?

[00:03:22] So I spent a lot of my time working with business and technology leaders,

[00:03:26] really focused on connecting individual skills to these organizational outcomes.

[00:03:31] So a lot of that comes from my lessons learned from 30 years in the technology leadership,

[00:03:37] large scale transformation at Capital One that I was involved with.

[00:03:41] So my goal is to take those lessons learned and help others save some time and money on their own transformations.

[00:03:48] And of course, using Pluralsight as the platform to scale skills development.

[00:03:53] And talking of transformations like myself, you've seen so many different ones throughout the years,

[00:03:58] whether it be the arrival of the internet, mobile revolution, mobile first, digital disruption.

[00:04:04] And of course, for the last two years, it's been about AI, AI hype everywhere we look.

[00:04:10] Over those two years, it's been mostly people like me and you talking about it.

[00:04:14] I would say more recently, it feels like it's going mainstream now with the Tim Cook Apple intelligence announcement.

[00:04:21] It was on Oprah a few nights ago.

[00:04:25] So as everybody's starting to take this seriously now,

[00:04:29] how do you think we should rethink traditional methods of things like learning and intelligence development in the workforce?

[00:04:35] Because it seems to be different skills, different requirements coming into the workplace.

[00:04:39] And equally, there are people in school now, they're studying for jobs that don't actually exist.

[00:04:43] So what do you see here?

[00:04:45] Yeah, it is certainly disruptive.

[00:04:47] And it is having an impact today, right now.

[00:04:52] And it's really got to look at like three key dimensions of skills development in particular that AI is having an impact on, right?

[00:05:01] So one is what we learn.

[00:05:03] The second is how we learn it.

[00:05:04] And the third is like how often we learn it, right?

[00:05:07] So the first with what we learn, right?

[00:05:10] So AI now, the thing is it can remember and process information way faster than I can or any humans, right?

[00:05:18] So what we learn is going to be moving away from a lot of that traditional simply acquiring and retaining knowledge, right?

[00:05:26] And shifting a lot more towards that human intelligence skills that's very difficult for AI to easily replicate.

[00:05:33] So I think you're going to see a little bit more emphasis on maybe some liberal arts type of creative problem solving, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, situational awareness, leadership.

[00:05:45] Some of those things that, you know, is not just the huntering and gathering of information and acquiring it through road memorization, right?

[00:05:53] So the second thing that Pluralsight is certainly impacted by is how we learn.

[00:05:59] It's already having a real positive impact on learning platforms like Pluralsight.

[00:06:04] So we're spending a lot of time leveraging AI for a more personalized learning experience, right?

[00:06:10] So our goal with AI is to allow each individual in the workforce to really learn at their own pace, right?

[00:06:17] And focus on areas that are most relevant to them versus this one size fits all, right?

[00:06:22] So AI is making that a lot easier to have more personalized learning experience along with things like real-time feedback, assessments, things like that, right?

[00:06:32] And of course, then how often we learn.

[00:06:34] I mean, learning and doing now is one and the same, right?

[00:06:38] In order to succeed, you got to have this culture of continuous learning and development.

[00:06:43] And you got to have, you know, bite-sized offerings, micro-learning content is going to be a very, very crucial role there.

[00:06:51] But you got to be constantly updating your skills.

[00:06:54] And AI is a great example of how disruptive that is.

[00:06:58] And you certainly don't want to be left on the wrong side of that disruption.

[00:07:02] 100% with you.

[00:07:03] And I think in recent years, there's been this label that every business is now a tech business.

[00:07:09] And I would also argue that every employee is a tech worker of some sort now.

[00:07:14] And I know a lot of people listening will say, I'm not techie.

[00:07:16] I'm not a tech person.

[00:07:18] I work in finance, marketing, HR, what have you.

[00:07:21] But if you look at the tech projects now, people from all these different departments are being used as project resources.

[00:07:29] And they have so many crossover skills that they can use and probably without even realizing it.

[00:07:34] So I'm curious, in your view, how will the shift away from the more linear career paths reshape opportunities for employees, particularly in the tech industry?

[00:07:44] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:07:47] I mean, so my own 30-year career, right?

[00:07:50] The focus was climbing this predefined ladder based on these job titles or tenure, right?

[00:07:58] It's a very linear approach to career path.

[00:08:00] And that carries a significant risk, right?

[00:08:02] Especially when somebody becomes specialized in a very, you know, like a single area, private data centers, for instance, that may become obsolete as the technology evolves.

[00:08:12] So I really think the shift away from this linear career path is a game changer for the tech industry.

[00:08:18] I'd love to see it.

[00:08:19] I think it's opening doors to a much more dynamic skills-based approach to career development, right?

[00:08:25] So like instead of climbing this predefined ladder, right, employees now have some flexibility to pivot across different roles from product manager to project manager to, you know, technology and pursue some of these more nontraditional opportunities.

[00:08:40] It's more like a career playground, right, instead of a career ladder.

[00:08:44] And this allows individuals to sort of advance or even, you know, transition laterally into different roles based on skill proficiency, not just the amount of time they spent in a particular position.

[00:08:57] So I get really excited to hear that for tech workers, especially those with like nontraditional backgrounds, right?

[00:09:04] So that enables them, they got a lot of unique perspectives.

[00:09:07] So connecting those unique perspectives with this technology to help drive innovation, I think is a real game changer.

[00:09:14] And, you know, this paradigm shift is going to really favor those who continuously upskill, right?

[00:09:20] It could adapt to that.

[00:09:21] And same with organizations and how they're rethinking developing talent rather than just sort of like hiring for a specific role, right?

[00:09:28] Organizations need to be much more focused on upskilling and evolving their existing workforce.

[00:09:33] So I think that that's, I love to see that shift and it's very welcome in my opinion.

[00:09:39] And I'm seeing a lot of different extremes at the moment in the job market in particular.

[00:09:44] On one side, there's a lot of concern around job displacement caused by AI.

[00:09:49] And on the other side of things, areas like cybersecurity have a 0% unemployment rate.

[00:09:54] And this was further strengthened to me when I was reading about Pluralsight.

[00:09:58] I think it was your technical research report that highlighted that cybersecurity and cloud skills are in incredibly high demand right now.

[00:10:05] So why do you think these skills are prioritized over like AI and machine learning that are filling our news feeds?

[00:10:12] Yeah, I mean, I think one of it, there is a word of caution with AI because we're seeing a lot of garbage being generated by AI in the market, right?

[00:10:19] Yeah.

[00:10:20] And that's going to increase the value of those that actually understand how things work, right?

[00:10:24] So I think learning the fundamentals, it's never been more important.

[00:10:27] And that includes like basic literacy on AI.

[00:10:30] Everybody in your organization should know like limitations, how to use it, you know, how to use it effectively, right?

[00:10:37] But when it comes to cloud computing and cybersecurity, ultimately both of those are really table stakes for enterprises, right?

[00:10:46] And you do not pass go and collect AI and ML without having those foundations like firmly in place, right?

[00:10:53] So unfortunately, there's a lot of organizations who took shortcuts with their initial cloud computing migrations.

[00:11:00] And that resulted in a lot less value than it's expected, right?

[00:11:04] So they simply like lifted and shifted their existing legacy practices and technology into the cloud.

[00:11:11] And that brought a lot of the same security and operational issues that we see when you're managing private data centers.

[00:11:19] So as a result, we're seeing like only 30% of IT leaders find their cloud initiatives are actually driving customer value.

[00:11:28] So I think instead of repeating the same mistakes with machine learning and AI, right?

[00:11:33] Leaders are now trying to make sure their entire workforce understand how to operate in this new model of cloud computing.

[00:11:41] It's the backbone, right, of the modern operating model.

[00:11:44] And it's really difficult to do machine learning and AI without cloud computing, right?

[00:11:52] And a big part of cloud computing is cybersecurity because it's now everybody's responsibility, which is why those two things are really going hand in hand.

[00:12:00] So AI or ML are certainly powerful tools to drive innovation, but they rely heavily on cloud and cybersecurity as enablers.

[00:12:12] So I think that that's why you're seeing that focus right now on those two over some of the AI and ML initiatives.

[00:12:21] And one of the reasons I was excited to get you on the podcast today, I was reading how you believe in this new spirit of exploration and learning can actually foster internal mobility with inside organizations of all sizes.

[00:12:34] So I've got to ask, how do you facilitate this through your learning platform?

[00:12:40] Anything you could share around that?

[00:12:42] Oh, yeah.

[00:12:42] Yeah. So, I mean, I have a lot of passion for this topic, really unleashing the greatness of the folks that work within your organization.

[00:12:51] So it's been great with Pluralsight to have a platform that enables that.

[00:12:54] Really kind of three things, the skills assessment, the personalized learning path, and then my favorite is the hands-on playground.

[00:13:01] So I think the first step, and we're going to, you know, we can double click on this in a little bit as well, but this concept of a skill IQ where, you know, how do you move forward if you don't know where you are, right?

[00:13:14] So we have an assessment that you can go in and understand where you are with a particular technology, and then that will help to establish what your learning path looks like.

[00:13:26] And that's really where it drives into the second thing, where it creates a personalized learning path, right?

[00:13:31] So now you know where you are, and then now, you know, to help you get where you're going.

[00:13:36] Now, based upon the results of that skill IQ, it was going to recommend specific courses and learning paths to help explore, you know, those gaps, right?

[00:13:45] And make it easier to transition from where you are to where you want to go.

[00:13:49] So that really helps, I think, employees to explore these different areas of interest with some sort of guided help.

[00:13:57] The third one is the hands-on labs and sandboxes, right?

[00:14:01] Learning and doing are one and the same.

[00:14:03] So these hands-on labs and sandboxes allows you to actually then take those skills and put them into practice, right?

[00:14:10] So applying what you're learning in real-world scenarios.

[00:14:13] And that certainly makes it easy when you're talking to hiring managers internally to be able to, you know, hey, show me your skills, right?

[00:14:20] And so you can start creating a little bit of a portfolio to have some tangible evidence of those skills during some internal, you know, hiring applications and things like that.

[00:14:31] So the learning by doing for me really sort of epitomizes that true spirit of exploration when it comes to technology.

[00:14:38] So, yeah, really excited about those features.

[00:14:41] Another thing that stood out for me on the report was how it showed a measurable significant cost between upskilling current employees and hiring new talent.

[00:14:50] And anyone that's seen the costs around a bad hire will understand why, maybe.

[00:14:55] But why do you think organizations still hesitate to prioritize upskilling despite the clear financial benefits?

[00:15:02] It's one of those great mysteries to me.

[00:15:04] Why do you think this is?

[00:15:06] Yeah, it's crazy.

[00:15:07] They're lost in the sauce, right?

[00:15:08] So the average cost of hiring new tech talent in the UK is like 32,000 pounds, where that's about 10,000 more than upskilling, right?

[00:15:19] So this is exactly the issue which inspired me in my career to pivot from I was director of cloud engineering and operations at Capital One.

[00:15:27] And I became dean of cloud computing and established their cloud engineering college, right?

[00:15:33] Because I had spent a lot of time with folks in technology operations.

[00:15:37] And they have a lot of these traditional system administration skills, unix, database, security, right?

[00:15:44] And they were often overlooked for filling these emerging roles with cloud computing.

[00:15:49] And I saw this huge opportunity to really try to bridge that gap between, you know, hey, here's this current and future state by investing in our existing talent and really kind of creating this comprehensive cloud program.

[00:16:02] I mean, your existing employees know where the skeletons are hidden in your data center closets, right?

[00:16:08] And they're already subscribed to your culture.

[00:16:10] So artisan and unleashing that greatness to me is just, you know, just of tremendous value.

[00:16:15] So I personally wish I had spent more time migrating talent to the cloud than the applications to the cloud.

[00:16:21] And Capital One had a lot of success with their cloud talent transformation program, focusing specifically on internal upskilling.

[00:16:29] But the issue is it requires a lot of focus and long-term planning.

[00:16:35] And a lot of organizations are just hesitant to prioritize, you know, that sort of upskilling because they have a short-term focus, right?

[00:16:46] Have immediate needs.

[00:16:47] And I don't think they have that long-term commitment to planning and funding, right?

[00:16:52] And so – and a lot of that is they don't have the data, right?

[00:16:55] I mean, if you don't understand your existing skills inventory and proficiency, well, how do you know where to invest in upskilling?

[00:17:03] And so it's just much easier to go hire somebody.

[00:17:05] So – and so it's very similar, I think, to the short-term gains and diminishing returns of this, like, lift and shift cloud migrations, right?

[00:17:12] It feels good for a little while.

[00:17:14] But the long-term, you know, it's really not going to be able to drive any systemic change in your organization.

[00:17:19] So I do think it takes a little bit more of long-term planning and commitment as well as really understanding your current situation.

[00:17:29] And one of the things that surprised me in the report was I think it was only a third of executives fully understand the skills and their IT teams need.

[00:17:38] So what steps can organizations take to improve their understanding and maybe better align their learning strategies accordingly?

[00:17:46] Anything you can advise around this?

[00:17:48] Yeah, I mean, it's really difficult to figure out where you're going if you don't know where you are, right?

[00:17:53] If you're getting, you know, where you want to go, it's based on the skills of your workforce.

[00:17:58] Because, you know, if you don't know the skill proficiency of your workforce, like, that's a big problem.

[00:18:04] And it's gotten even worse with the surge of AI, right?

[00:18:08] So we know that like 74% of IT professionals are currently worried that AI tools are going to make their day-to-day skills obsolete.

[00:18:19] And 69% of IT pros believe that they're at risk for being replaced by AI.

[00:18:25] Well, despite like those overwhelming fears, 90% of execs say they don't completely understand their team's AI skill and proficiencies.

[00:18:35] That's a pretty scary, you know, position to be in.

[00:18:40] And so when I work with leaders, one of the first things that we do is leverage our skill IQ assessments for their organization to create this inventory of workforce proficiency, right?

[00:18:50] So that's going to help establish the current state and then, you know, eventually measure, benchmark individual and organizational progress, right?

[00:18:57] So then we actually have this cool tool called the role IQ, where that's more of the future state.

[00:19:03] You could take a bunch of different skills, roll them together in a role IQ, and now you could kind of say, oh, well, what skills do I need to be able to fill a role?

[00:19:11] Which makes it much easier to upskill internally versus now hiring externally.

[00:19:16] So, yeah.

[00:19:17] So, you know, once you have the benchmark, then you, you know, just conduct regular skills assessments, measure the progress, and you could actually compare them against the industry.

[00:19:26] So, yeah, I think that that really provides clear data-driven understanding of IT strengths and weaknesses.

[00:19:34] And that's what's needed for that gap analysis versus just, you know, hey, I'm going to go out and just, you know, hire somebody externally or, you know, get this short-term wins without really that long-term investment.

[00:19:47] And one of the things we talk about a lot on this Daily Tech podcast is the importance of continuous learning.

[00:19:53] So, as someone right in the heart of this space, how are you finding continuous learning programs help close that growing skills gap that we keep reading about, particularly in rapidly evolving areas like cloud computing and cybersecurity that we've mentioned a few times today?

[00:20:08] Yeah.

[00:20:09] It's learning tech is no longer once and done, right?

[00:20:13] It is the culture of continuous learning.

[00:20:15] It's learning.

[00:20:45] Learning stories in there as a spike story.

[00:20:48] You know, you could put a story in there, like each of them, you know, three stories.

[00:20:51] Each of them are an hour.

[00:20:53] One story for something to watch.

[00:20:55] One story for something to read.

[00:20:56] And one story for something to do, right?

[00:20:59] Then every sprint, the team is pulling off those stories into their daily activity.

[00:21:06] And they're helping on the daily stand-ups.

[00:21:08] They're providing a status on them.

[00:21:10] And then maybe even at the end of the sprint, they do a retro and they say, hey, what did we learn and how do we apply it, right?

[00:21:16] So that's the type of approach we talk about continuous learning that really helps to create this workforce that is always learning and always evolving.

[00:21:27] It's allowing these skills to be much closer to the work being done.

[00:21:32] And it empowers these self-organizing learning teams with some autonomy and flexibility to explore these topics that are relevant to their specific demands.

[00:21:42] So I think that's a good example of what it means to really close those skills gap, you know, with continuous learning programs.

[00:21:52] And one of the things I've seen repeatedly, especially with new technologies as they enter the workplace, everyone gets distracted by the new must-have technology and getting it inside the organization.

[00:22:03] But they always seem to forget the most important thing to make it successful.

[00:22:07] And that is the workplace culture, of course.

[00:22:09] And as a cloud strategist at Pluralsight, what strategies do you recommend for companies looking to create that sustainable culture of lifelong learning, employee development?

[00:22:20] And I appreciate that question on its own.

[00:22:23] It's an entire podcast episode.

[00:22:24] It is the secret sauce that everyone's looking for.

[00:22:27] But what strategies do you recommend?

[00:22:29] Yeah, I think that this is where a lot of companies are just getting it flat out wrong when it comes to creating a sustainable culture, right?

[00:22:34] And this is probably one of my biggest lessons learned from driving a talent transformation at Capital One.

[00:22:39] And that's enterprises have a ton of inertia in place tied to existing ways of doing things.

[00:22:46] Like, this is the way we do things, tribe, right?

[00:22:49] And so in order to shift to this new paradigm like cloud computing, you've got to create enough counter momentum to overcome the inertia.

[00:22:58] It's a similar concept to that, you know, crossing the chasm from early innovators to early majority.

[00:23:03] If you don't create enough critical mass, you just end up in an echo chamber of early adopters.

[00:23:09] So with any culture, the basis is often tied to these core elements that people forget about, like language and rituals and artifacts.

[00:23:19] And you've got to reach a tipping point where this small group of technologists that embrace this new language becomes that majority consensus.

[00:23:29] So, you know, one of the things we did at Capital One, for instance, we use cloud certifications as this tattoo of the new tribe that was forming, right?

[00:23:36] So earning a cloud certification was this marker of joining the new tribe and that you understood the language.

[00:23:43] Like when I say, oh, you're going to spin up a VPC with an IGW, use EC2 and EBS and front it with ELB, right?

[00:23:50] You don't need a translator, right?

[00:23:52] Everybody spoke the language of cloud.

[00:23:54] And as part of that culture, you know, you use visible artifacts like cloud of fame and rituals like weekly cloud hours.

[00:24:02] And, you know, you start to create a culture and literacy turns into fluency with hands-on experience.

[00:24:08] And then that drives applicability within your organization.

[00:24:11] And that really effort is required across that chasm and critical mass, right?

[00:24:16] And that's what is needed to create that flywheel for a sustainable transition to the new operating model.

[00:24:22] Love that.

[00:24:23] Listening to those acronyms there, I had flashbacks from an old CSI episode.

[00:24:28] I don't know if you remember this, but somebody said in there, I'll create a GUI interface using Visual Basic and see if I can track the IP address.

[00:24:35] Made absolutely no sense, but I always remember that line in that program.

[00:24:39] Yeah, there is a language, you know, and there's a language emerging with AI as well with LLMs and tokens.

[00:24:45] And it's the same conversation.

[00:24:46] You have to be literate and it can't be this small group of people.

[00:24:49] It has to be critical mass.

[00:24:51] If you're going to create a culture around that.

[00:24:54] 100%.

[00:24:54] And of course, for many people listening, they'll be feeling that pressure to be in a state of continuous learning.

[00:25:00] And you're someone that gives fantastic advice and educates and creates strategies to help people do this.

[00:25:06] But let's flip that on its head for a moment.

[00:25:08] Where or how do you self-educate?

[00:25:11] Yeah, so I think that the ongoing learning journey that I'm having with AI is probably a good example of how I approach my own education, right?

[00:25:21] So the first thing is establishing a foundation.

[00:25:24] So I took my own skills assessment on Pluralsight, you know, and it came out, hey, you're emerging, you're a starter, right?

[00:25:33] But it recommended a course for me, a learning path.

[00:25:37] And I did that over a couple of months.

[00:25:39] I just learning the basics and it provided me a framework to be able to start collecting my thoughts around, right?

[00:25:45] And that framework was very helpful for the next steps.

[00:25:48] And it gave me some confidence to explore like the hands-on labs and projects in these sandbox environments to experiment with some LLMs, for instance, right?

[00:25:56] Understand what these tokens are.

[00:25:59] And then the next step was kind of putting it into practice, right?

[00:26:02] So I ended up experimenting with a custom version of a chat GPT called the Cloudfather.

[00:26:10] Together, I used a bunch of data from my published articles and blogs as the knowledge base to sort of see, well, okay, how does that work and how can we make it applicable where you can go in?

[00:26:21] You could start asking the Cloudfather questions on talent transformation or cloud computing, right?

[00:26:27] So you start getting more comfortable with the topics.

[00:26:29] And then I spent a lot of time, you know, reading technical blogs now and newsletters from other leaders.

[00:26:35] And I found a great source of my continuous learning is its summits and conferences like AWS.

[00:26:42] AWS offers these free summits in major cities around the world and you get access to these incredible experts, right?

[00:26:51] And so you could just go and absorb that and meet them and talk with them and connect with them.

[00:26:56] And so we'll be going to the AWS reInvent conference.

[00:26:59] And that's where I'll be deep diving into now a lot of the specific AI services and solutions.

[00:27:06] So yeah, and then to put a bow on it, I'll probably go after an AI certification with AWS just to sort of solidify my understanding of it.

[00:27:16] I think getting a cert is a good starting point, but I always say it's like when you're certified, you're an expert.

[00:27:22] And, you know, but an expert means that now, you know, how much you don't know.

[00:27:26] What you don't want to be as a hazard is somebody that thinks they know more than they know.

[00:27:30] That's the worst thing you could do.

[00:27:31] So, you know, getting that cert, it's like, okay, now I know how much I don't know.

[00:27:35] I have my, you know, liberal arts degree in sort of cloud or AI, but now I could start, you know, building off of that, you know, with future knowledge.

[00:27:43] So, yeah.

[00:27:43] So it's been a journey.

[00:27:45] It's going to be a continuous one because, I mean, as you know, it's changing every single day at this point, right?

[00:27:51] Yeah.

[00:27:51] I love that.

[00:27:52] The cloud father.

[00:27:53] Please tell me you've got a T-shirt or a website URL with that on.

[00:27:57] You've got to have to learn something.

[00:27:59] And for anyone listening, just wanting to find you or your team online, dig a little bit deeper on anything we talked about today, like that report, for example.

[00:28:09] Anywhere in particular you'd like to point everyone listening?

[00:28:11] Well, yeah.

[00:28:12] I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn where I love to connect with individuals.

[00:28:15] I'm pretty active there.

[00:28:16] And for more details on some of the reports and findings I mentioned today, you could just go to Pluralsight.com.

[00:28:23] We have a great resource section along with really a ton of solid blogs from our authors and industry experts.

[00:28:32] So, yeah, Pluralsight.com and the resources and blogs is a great place to follow up as well.

[00:28:38] Well, so many big takeaways and things I was jotting down throughout our conversation there.

[00:28:43] From that average cost of hiring new tech talent here in the UK is over 32,000 per employee.

[00:28:49] 10,000 more than upskilling existing workers.

[00:28:53] Food for thought there.

[00:28:54] Equally, the fact that only 33% of execs properly understand the skills that their IT teams need.

[00:29:00] And also, I think a big probably point to end on here is why organisations should be prioritising skills like cybersecurity and cloud, maybe over AI and ML.

[00:29:11] Love to hear what people are thinking about that.

[00:29:14] But more than anything, thanks for joining me today.

[00:29:17] Thank you, Neil.

[00:29:18] One of the things that stood out in my conversation with Drew is the importance of long-term thinking when it comes to tech talent.

[00:29:25] Upskilling isn't just about saving costs.

[00:29:28] It's about creating a culture of continuous learning.

[00:29:31] Where employees are empowered to grow, experiment and stay relevant in this ever-changing world.

[00:29:37] And Drew's insights on why cloud and cybersecurity skills are in such high demand

[00:29:42] and why these foundational skills are the bedrock for digital transformation

[00:29:48] should give every leader listening something to think about as they plan for the future.

[00:29:52] Especially when many are just thinking about AI right now.

[00:29:55] And I think Drew also shared some thought-provoking ideas on reimagining career paths in tech.

[00:30:02] Moving away from linear roles to a career playground model.

[00:30:07] And ultimately how it's a shift that not only benefits the individual, but also the organisation at large by fostering innovation and agility.

[00:30:16] So the key takeaway here is that investing in people's growth is a smart move.

[00:30:22] So a big thank you to Drew for joining me today.

[00:30:25] Drew, you are a great guy.

[00:30:27] If you are listening back to this conversation, one day we'll definitely have to grab that warm pint in an old English pub.

[00:30:34] Darts, fruit machines, stocker on the TV.

[00:30:37] All before heading out to the chip shop for some fish chips and yes, mushy peas.

[00:30:41] But until then, I know Pluralsight's work will continue to inspire and guide many in their journey to close those skills gaps that we discussed today.

[00:30:51] So I urge everyone listening to check out that technical research report.

[00:30:55] And remember you can connect with Drew and his team online.

[00:30:58] If you've got anything you want to share with me, any questions or insights,

[00:31:01] tech blog writer at outlook.com and Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, just at Neil C. Hughes.

[00:31:07] So let's keep that conversation going.

[00:31:09] It's time for me to prepare for tomorrow's guest now.

[00:31:12] So I'm going to get out of here.

[00:31:14] I've taken up far too much of your time.

[00:31:16] But rest assured, I'll be right back first thing tomorrow morning lurking in your podcast feed with another guest.

[00:31:23] So hopefully I will speak with you all then.

[00:31:25] Bye for now.