3082: The Cave Dweller's Dilemma: Ancient Instincts in a Modern Tech World

[00:00:04] Could understanding our ancient past help us all navigate the technological complexities of the modern world?

[00:00:13] Well, today here on Tech Talks Daily, I want to explore the intriguing intersection with Annette Taylor, also known as Cave Girl Claire from the cavedwellerclub.com.

[00:00:25] And Annette is a former IT professional turned evolutionary psychologist.

[00:00:30] And with their help today, we're going to explore how traits from our cave-dwelling ancestors are influencing today's digital behaviours.

[00:00:40] This is something that absolutely fascinates me.

[00:00:43] And with a human history segmented into everything from tree-dwellers, cave-dwellers and modern house-dwellers,

[00:00:50] my conversation today with Annette probes how these evolutionary stages can affect our interactions with rapid technological advancements.

[00:01:01] Annette's insights aim to enhance our decision-making and increase our self-awareness,

[00:01:06] which is needed more than ever, especially in a world dominated by instant digital gratification.

[00:01:13] It's a big topic, this one, and something that I hope will resonate with every single person listening.

[00:01:18] But enough from me. Let's get Annette onto the podcast right now.

[00:01:22] So a massive warm welcome to the show. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

[00:01:30] Annette. Hey, Neil. Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:33] I'm Annette Taylor. I used to be part of an IT department at a Fortune 500 company.

[00:01:39] But recently, my passion has become researching evolutionary psychology and biology.

[00:01:45] And I originally earned a master's degree in educational psychology.

[00:01:49] But now I like to tell people I'm a former tech geek with a research problem.

[00:01:55] And that's just one of the many reasons you're a perfect guest for this show, too.

[00:01:59] Yes, I'm so excited to be talking about some of this stuff because they're very different worlds, the tech world and the evolutionary psychology world.

[00:02:08] So, yeah, I kind of found a bridge after seven years of research.

[00:02:13] But in a broad sense, I realized that human history can be divided into three time periods.

[00:02:19] They're very broad generalizations.

[00:02:22] But our time, our species, when we were tree dwellers, when we were basically passively collecting food, then there was our time as cave dwellers, when we were more actively foraging, like hunting.

[00:02:36] And then our current time is what I call house dwellers, where we're essentially been domesticated.

[00:02:45] I was going to say that's one of the reasons I invited you on the podcast today, because I'm fascinated by technology, but also the past and what that can teach us about the future.

[00:02:53] And there's a lot of hype around artificial intelligence at the moment.

[00:02:57] And pretty much how it's working is it's hoovering up all of the Internet's data, and that's how it's getting so smart.

[00:03:03] But I was reading that within the next five years, it could run out of information to learn on.

[00:03:08] But then equally, I heard about another group.

[00:03:10] I think they were in Israel, and they had found that they were hidden evidence of ancient human fires from one million years ago, because they were using AI.

[00:03:20] They're the complete opposite by looking into the past and hoovering up that data and finding hidden insights in that.

[00:03:26] And that was one of the reasons I was excited to get you on the podcast today, because you often explore how cave dweller traits have actually shaped our modern behaviours without realising it.

[00:03:36] So I've got to ask, just to kind of set the scene for our conversation today, how do you think these ancestral traits impact the way we interact with the rapidly evolving technology today?

[00:03:46] And why is the pace of technological change such a significant issue for us today?

[00:03:53] Yeah, it is significant.

[00:03:55] So in general, the pace of nature is gradual, like in the morning, it gets light, but not all at once.

[00:04:03] And it gets dark at night, but it takes hours.

[00:04:06] And we grow older, but it takes years.

[00:04:09] And as cave dwellers, we used resources like water, but not all at once.

[00:04:16] So it was just the pace was just a little more gradual.

[00:04:21] But at the same time, if we didn't respond immediately as cave dwellers to our surroundings, there was a good chance we were going to get picked off.

[00:04:30] So we're built to adapt, but the volume of things modern people are expected to pay attention to is highly unnatural in the information age.

[00:04:40] And many people claim recently that, you know, they have ADD, they can't focus on things.

[00:04:47] And in some ways, our minds are kind of stuck in the very distant path.

[00:04:52] We're trying to pay attention to too many things at once.

[00:04:55] And our minds have not evolved at the same rate as our surroundings.

[00:04:59] I can almost hear people around the world nodding in agreement with everything you just said.

[00:05:04] I know I certainly was.

[00:05:08] So in your view, then, why do you think a biological drive for energy conservation or laziness has increased overall in recent human history and in line, not opposition with the laziness that technology provides us?

[00:05:24] I mean, there's a whole argument around AI reducing our critical thinking skills.

[00:05:29] But what do you see here and how does this tension affect our ability to ultimately be creative, which is such a fundamental human trait, right?

[00:05:37] It's, yes.

[00:05:40] Technology makes things easier and it appeals to our efficiency side, like creativity side and efficiency side in my mind are kind of on a continuum.

[00:05:54] But creativity, like during our cave dweller times, was what got us the tools that make things efficient in the first place.

[00:06:04] So as we lose creativity, we're kind of just stuck in this efficiency.

[00:06:08] And then it feels good because we're conserving our energy, you know, because we want to be ready for the next emergency.

[00:06:17] And there were lots of emergencies when we were cave dwellers, but in modern times, we're a little more in control of our environment.

[00:06:25] And when these, you know, existential emergencies don't come, we're left with anxiety.

[00:06:35] We're keeping our energy ready for the next emergency, but there aren't as many.

[00:06:40] We're not being chased by saber-toothed tigers anymore.

[00:06:45] We're not, but we've opened up so many other problems as well.

[00:06:49] And before you came on the podcast today, I was doing a little research on you.

[00:06:52] And I noticed in past conversations, you've emphasized the importance of self-awareness and relearning our human biology.

[00:07:00] So I'm curious, although this is a tech podcast, how can you, how do you think understanding our evolutionary psychology can help us make better decisions about how we use and how we interact with technology?

[00:07:13] Especially when you look around any crowded public place and everyone's face down in their smartphone.

[00:07:19] I know. Oh my gosh, that's such a great question.

[00:07:23] Simply being aware of our own moods is a huge chunk of this.

[00:07:28] I think also of a trust-fear continuum.

[00:07:33] That is, when we are not in trust, it actually means we're moving toward fear.

[00:07:39] And in modern society, there are a few places left where we can practice trust.

[00:07:44] And the more fearful we feel, the less likely the logical part of our brains has time to respond.

[00:07:50] As we get scared, the older parts of our brain take over.

[00:07:54] So we just end up reacting.

[00:07:56] And as people who use tech a lot, we become accustomed to knowing what's going to happen next.

[00:08:04] And our brains are essentially anticipatory organs.

[00:08:08] They're trying to guess what's going to happen next.

[00:08:11] They're like, keep us alive.

[00:08:13] And modern tech users have basically become addicted to knowing what is going to come, what is going to happen next because it makes us feel safer.

[00:08:25] But when we're wrong, when we think we know what's going to happen and we're wrong, we panic.

[00:08:31] And cave dwellers did not have a ton of expectations like modern people do.

[00:08:37] And they did not expect to be right all the time.

[00:08:40] But I think that ended up giving them more confidence because they were ready for anything.

[00:08:46] And today, we're really only ready for what we expect.

[00:08:50] That is such a powerful point, especially at a time where algorithms on all those platforms that we use are designed to feed our own opinions and likes straight back to us to prove that we're always right.

[00:09:03] Give us that confirmation bias.

[00:09:04] It's a huge problem, isn't it?

[00:09:06] It's a huge problem and totally unnatural and really bad for our psyches and our sense of being able to handle life.

[00:09:18] Yeah.

[00:09:19] It really has.

[00:09:20] And you've mentioned that our modern reliance on technology also, rather than face-to-face interactions, has these unintended consequences in our psyches that you've just mentioned there.

[00:09:31] But can you elaborate on some of those consequences, what they are and how they might impact our communication and relationships as a species?

[00:09:39] We might raise a few self-awareness moments in people listening here, including myself.

[00:09:46] Well, but can you elaborate on some of those consequences just to bring to life what we're talking about here?

[00:09:52] Sure.

[00:10:20] Sure.

[00:10:22] When we can't see, hear, maybe shake a hand or even smell unconsciously who we're communicating with.

[00:10:31] And that, in turn, makes our relationships with faceless people more tenuous.

[00:10:35] Another reason I invited you on the podcast today is a few years ago, I wrote an article about how binary thinking is ruining our lives.

[00:10:45] I know.

[00:10:46] But more recently, you've wrote a fantastic article too called Another Inconvenient Truth.

[00:10:51] Our brains are better than binary.

[00:10:53] So can you tell me a little bit more about how fear played a pivotal role in ancestral survival and how you think modern experiences like fear, especially in our digital and hyper-connected world, differ from that of our ancestors?

[00:11:08] How do you see this?

[00:11:12] So it's interesting.

[00:11:14] There are some ways that ancestral fear and modern fear are the same, and there are some ways that ancestral fear and modern fear are different.

[00:11:22] So I'll start with the same thing.

[00:11:24] Yeah.

[00:11:26] So ancestral fear, most people know, is basically fight, flight, or freeze.

[00:11:32] And it increased our chances of staying alive.

[00:11:36] But most of us, we still react with these three Fs, fight, flight, and freeze, as modern people.

[00:11:45] And there are still unknowns in both kind of realms.

[00:11:53] And we still like to avoid the unknown.

[00:11:55] So, again, we like to know what's going to happen next.

[00:11:59] But the way that ancestral fear and modern fear are different is that ancestral fear was basically of unfamiliar places or predators or people that weren't in our tribe.

[00:12:13] The outgroups were totally obvious.

[00:12:16] But as modern people, it's gotten hard for us to identify untrustworthy people since half the people that get us through our day are strangers.

[00:12:25] I'm at the checkout line.

[00:12:27] Those who are driving cars and don't hit us.

[00:12:31] Thank you, all you people out there.

[00:12:33] Customer service people on the other hand of a phone.

[00:12:37] Again, faceless.

[00:12:39] And if you're lucky to get like the service person that's a person instead of a bot, that's nice.

[00:12:45] But still, not quite the same.

[00:12:47] Our brains are expecting outgroup, though.

[00:12:49] And we're automatically looking for people we shouldn't trust.

[00:12:54] And oftentimes, we pick silly things like in color or political party to help us decide who we should exclude and be relegated to our outgroup.

[00:13:06] This is arguably a question that is a podcast in its own right and possibly even a bestselling book if we can nail the answer.

[00:13:15] How do you think we can strike that balance between using technology for efficiency while still nurturing our innate creativity and social bonds?

[00:13:26] It is a massive, massive question.

[00:13:28] But where do you stand on this and what is the answer?

[00:13:32] Yes, I do have an opinion.

[00:13:35] We've invented a lot of things.

[00:13:37] So I don't know how much we actually need creativity anymore, really.

[00:13:42] Creativity is almost the luxury of our species.

[00:13:45] Not many others get as creative as we have gotten.

[00:13:50] And it does require energy.

[00:13:53] So especially since efficiency has become so important in recent years, using tech can kind of make us lazy.

[00:14:02] But we do need community-oriented events or actions.

[00:14:08] It's called co-registration.

[00:14:10] When we do things together, we feel safe or normal or balanced.

[00:14:16] I don't know what the word is.

[00:14:17] And it keeps our psyches healthy.

[00:14:19] And when we know or sometimes don't know who we're communicating with, like if it's AI, we can feel a little bit cut off or alone or isolated.

[00:14:31] And when humans are alone, biologically, we get uneasy.

[00:14:35] And then we start to make decisions based in fear instead of trust.

[00:14:40] And one thing that can mitigate this is Dunbar's number.

[00:14:44] Have you read of Dunbar's number?

[00:14:46] No.

[00:14:47] Tell me more.

[00:14:48] Okay.

[00:14:48] So Dunbar's number.

[00:14:49] There's this researcher named Robin Dunbar.

[00:14:52] I believe he's a Brit.

[00:14:53] Yeah.

[00:14:54] And he has come up with this idea that around 150, if there are 150 people, our psyches can kind of neurobiologically keep track of about that many people.

[00:15:08] And most evolutionary psychology researchers, it's one of the few things that they almost all agree on, that this number is real.

[00:15:18] And so if we could, it's because most of our tribes never got more than 100, 150 as cave dwellers.

[00:15:27] And that's kind of, our brains are kind of stuck in this time because, you know, the culture has changed so rapidly.

[00:15:34] And if, I think it would help in our personal and business decisions if we were, they were more in line or accepted that this number is real.

[00:15:44] And then that's how our brains are really wired to the work.

[00:15:47] And what was that number again?

[00:15:49] What is that actual number?

[00:15:50] Well, so technically, like there's a chart somewhere.

[00:15:53] Yeah.

[00:15:53] It's like 147.8.

[00:15:58] But most people round up to 150.

[00:16:01] And I imagine a cave dwelling group having probably around 100 functional people at a time, like you might have too old or too young.

[00:16:13] So, and I've heard in other areas that you need 100 people to like get through life.

[00:16:21] And I think that's like kind of biologically possible, but it's accurate.

[00:16:26] Wow.

[00:16:27] So why do we all have, I don't know, 500 Facebook friends, 300 followers on Instagram?

[00:16:34] I think it means much to our cave dwellers, our inner cave dwellers.

[00:16:40] Wow.

[00:16:40] So you've also talked about the dangers of over-categorization and how that also stems from fear in today's information age and information overload.

[00:16:51] So another big question here, what do we need to do to become more self-aware of this behavior?

[00:16:57] And what steps can we take to approach information and decision-making in that more balanced and less fear-driven way?

[00:17:04] And I say that right in the middle of an election season over there in the US, but what's the answer?

[00:17:12] Yeah, we're what, a week away from voting, something like that.

[00:17:16] Yeah.

[00:17:17] Interesting.

[00:17:18] But thank you for bringing this up.

[00:17:20] I think in a desperate attempt to make sense of life during the information age, we over-categorize.

[00:17:27] We make assumptions about people based on what their political party is, or we stereotype based on maybe economic success or skin color.

[00:17:41] We might seem to be even left-handed or right-handed or left-brained or right-brained.

[00:17:47] And I imagine our cave-dwelling ancestors would think some of the things that we believe about each other based on, let's say we use a left-hand or a right-hand, are utterly ridiculous.

[00:17:58] Like, I doubt they lock themselves down to doing things, you know, with their dominant hand.

[00:18:03] You know, they were a little more flexible.

[00:18:06] That's a good illustration, though, of why I think looking at life from a cave-dweller perspective can be helpful.

[00:18:13] We find ourselves blaming supposed out-group members for our problems a lot and making excuses for people in our in-groups.

[00:18:22] And oftentimes I'll just think to myself, what would a cave-dweller do?

[00:18:26] Or what would a cave-dweller think?

[00:18:29] If I only had 100 people in my tribe, would I tolerate someone being dishonest or greedy?

[00:18:35] No way.

[00:18:37] But I do it in modern life because I can pick and choose who's in my in-group.

[00:18:44] And with so few people in the cave-dwellers in-group, every single person needs to be firing on all cylinders and be completely cooperative and honest.

[00:18:58] And if someone were found untrustworthy in a tribe, they would get kicked out.

[00:19:03] So it's pretty easy to start paying attention to how often we categorize things.

[00:19:10] But we do it a lot.

[00:19:13] We really do.

[00:19:14] And I must admit, when you first mentioned the concept of channeling your inner cave-dweller,

[00:19:19] I was thinking about the different synergies between those two worlds.

[00:19:23] And one of the things that struck me straight away about the cave-dweller was the communication through drawings inside those caves or the Egyptians with hieroglyphics, of course.

[00:19:33] And now we're all communicating with drawings, with emojis.

[00:19:37] Did you ever make that link as well?

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:39] I think we're going back a little bit.

[00:19:42] And what's funny about emojis is they're efficient because I can express my emotions without feeling them.

[00:19:49] And, yeah, I think people need to be aware of where we came from.

[00:19:54] And I think it'll help us going forward.

[00:19:56] 100% with you.

[00:19:57] And, of course, we got to know each other through our mutual friend, Jeff Eichler.

[00:20:01] And I've had conversations with him.

[00:20:04] And when we first got to know each other, you sent me a video a few weeks back.

[00:20:09] And it was some of the ideas discussed by Yuval Noah Hawari about AI and its potential to disrupt society.

[00:20:19] I've got to ask, what are your thoughts on how Stone Age minds are equipped or maybe even ill-equipped to handle the challenges AI presents to our sense of self-worth and social belonging?

[00:20:31] Again, really big question.

[00:20:32] We're going deep today.

[00:20:33] But what are your thoughts on this?

[00:20:36] Yes.

[00:20:37] You sometimes ask people on your podcast who they'd like to have lunch with.

[00:20:40] And Yuval would be up on my list for sure.

[00:20:44] Our Stone Age minds are pretty ill-equipped to handle not only the physical challenges AI presents, but also the emotional ones.

[00:20:56] If AI starts doing our daily tasks or even bigger jobs for us, we humans will start to feel more anxious because we'll have more pent-up energy.

[00:21:06] And ultimately, I think that it'll make us maybe unconsciously but feel worthless.

[00:21:11] Like, what is our purpose in life?

[00:21:14] I mean, we're built to do things for people in our tribes.

[00:21:17] And if we don't have to anymore, many of us won't.

[00:21:21] We will choose efficiency.

[00:21:24] And then our sense of social belonging could evaporate.

[00:21:28] As humans, we biologically require a sense of purpose, and we will lose that if we give up what we do for each other to AI.

[00:21:41] Such a powerful point you made there.

[00:21:44] And I would say something else that we all respond to, maybe even as far back as those cave-dwelling days, is responding to music and dance.

[00:21:51] So you've shared so many great insights today.

[00:21:54] I'm not going to ask you who you're going to have lunch with.

[00:21:57] You've kind of answered that already, really.

[00:21:59] Would you like to add a song to our Spotify playlist?

[00:22:03] All I'm going to ask is, what song would you like to leave and why?

[00:22:05] It's not a personal favorite of mine, but I think there's a reason that Never Gonna Give You Up by Rick Astley keeps popping back up into our lives.

[00:22:17] You've been Rickrolled a few times.

[00:22:18] Oh, my.

[00:22:19] Well, just, I mean, haven't we all?

[00:22:21] Yeah.

[00:22:22] Yeah, but, you know, that's your inner cave-dweller listening to these messages.

[00:22:28] We're never going to give you up, never going to let you down, never going to run around.

[00:22:34] And it's just our cave-dwellerers are like, yes.

[00:22:39] Man, I almost, you've given me earworm now.

[00:22:41] I'm almost compelled to say.

[00:22:42] I know.

[00:22:42] I have so many friends that are like, why?

[00:22:45] Why did it have to be that song?

[00:22:47] Well, we will infect earworm on every single person listening because I'm going to add that straight to a Spotify playlist.

[00:22:56] Oh, my God.

[00:22:57] Anyone listening wanting to find out more information about you, your work, contact you, or find out more information about anything we talked about today, what's the best way of connecting with you?

[00:23:08] Where would you like to send everyone?

[00:23:09] I have a website called cave-dweller-club.com.

[00:23:14] And everything's there, really.

[00:23:17] Seven years of research.

[00:23:19] The first, probably three or four, are contained in a blog.

[00:23:24] And I kind of figured this out when I became obsessed with a TV show and I wanted to find out why.

[00:23:31] And it turned out there were like leadership qualities in the characters of the show.

[00:23:35] So if you look at my blog, it starts out talking about these shows.

[00:23:40] It seems like a little like fandom based and it is.

[00:23:45] But if you keep going, you will see the connections to my inner cave dweller.

[00:23:51] I have a reference page.

[00:23:52] I have a resource page, which are a list of books that use evolutionary basics and what they write about.

[00:24:02] And I find them helpful.

[00:24:03] I have a place to ask my inner cave dweller questions.

[00:24:06] I've named her.

[00:24:08] Her name is Cave Girl Claire.

[00:24:09] And I have playlists.

[00:24:13] Well, I tell them soundtrack.

[00:24:14] But playlists attached to some of my blog posts.

[00:24:17] So just like you on Spotify, I have 29 or 30 soundtracks that go with my blog posts.

[00:24:25] So if I talk about a certain type of leader that uses hierarchy instead of cooperation,

[00:24:32] there are maybe 15 or 20 songs that have hierarchy in them and you don't know.

[00:24:38] But if you go listen to my little soundtrack, it's kind of a little accompaniment to the things that I talk about in my blog.

[00:24:46] Wow.

[00:24:46] Well, one of the other things from cave dweller is I think we often lose and that is curiosity.

[00:24:51] And you've certainly opened my mind now.

[00:24:53] I've got so many different questions about those soundtracks.

[00:24:55] So I'm going to be checking those out.

[00:24:57] And before I let you go, I've got to ask, what were the TV shows that put you on this journey?

[00:25:01] Are there any you could just give me a few names now before I go off to your side?

[00:25:05] Oh, yeah.

[00:25:06] There's actually only one.

[00:25:07] It was a very deep dive.

[00:25:09] I don't know if you've heard of the TV show Supernatural.

[00:25:13] Yes.

[00:25:14] Yes, I have.

[00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:15] Yes.

[00:25:15] The main characters plus the minor character basically in my mind, and I wasn't aware until after I did all this research,

[00:25:23] they kind of are the perfect leadership pod.

[00:25:56] Oh.

[00:25:57] Too long online or staring down at a device.

[00:26:00] So just trying to learn more about channeling our inner cave dweller and what we are all about.

[00:26:06] It's certainly something I'm going to be exploring.

[00:26:08] But just thank you so much for shining a light on this.

[00:26:10] Really feel enlightened.

[00:26:11] Thanks so much.

[00:26:13] Oh, you're so welcome.

[00:26:14] Thanks for having me on.

[00:26:15] Wow.

[00:26:16] What an enriching discussion there with Annette.

[00:26:19] And I think together today, we've all traveled through time from our ancestral past to the digital presence.

[00:26:25] But we've uncovered how evolutionary psychology informs our interaction with technology.

[00:26:32] And yes, we've discussed the natural pace of change versus the speed of modern tech.

[00:26:38] But the strategic thinking of our cave dwelling ancestors, combined with the balance between creativity and efficiency,

[00:26:45] are ultimately essential for our survival.

[00:26:49] So as I for one sit here considering and reflecting on Annette's insights into how ancient instincts maybe shape our technological uses,

[00:26:59] and yes, sometimes abuses, I'd love to throw this one over to you.

[00:27:04] What reflections do you have about your own digital habits?

[00:27:07] Do you see or hear the ancient echoes in your modern interactions?

[00:27:12] I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.

[00:27:14] Please share them with me.

[00:27:16] As always, email me techblogwriteroutlook.com, X, Instagram, and LinkedIn, just at Neil C. Hughes.

[00:27:23] Tell me any synergies or parallels or anything in between that you see between our ancestry past and digital future.

[00:27:31] But on that very deep note, I'm going to go Rickroll myself and listen to a bit of Rick Astley now.

[00:27:36] And yes, you guessed it.

[00:27:37] I'm never going to give you up my listeners.

[00:27:39] So I will be back again tomorrow with another guest,

[00:27:42] where we'll explore a completely different topic.

[00:27:45] But thanks to Annette for joining me today.

[00:27:48] Big thank you to each and every one of you for tuning in.

[00:27:50] And hopefully I will get to speak with you all again tomorrow.

[00:27:53] But bye for now.