3203: The Creator of Spotify Playlists on the Future of Music and Fan Engagement

[00:00:03] Have you ever discovered your new favourite song through a Spotify playlist? Chances are today's guest had a hand in that because my guest today, Nick Holmston, is widely known as the creator of Spotify Playlists and former global head of music at Spotify.

[00:00:20] And he has played a pivotal role in reshaping how we discover and engage with music. But beyond curating songs, Nick has spent his entire career at the intersection of fan engagement, innovation and the evolving entertainment industry. And now, as he works on his next venture and authors his book, Fan Powered Futures, Nick is now exploring how blockchain, Web3 and new engagement models could once again redefine artist-fan relationships.

[00:00:51] So today we're going to discuss how streaming changed music discovery forever, why fan engagement is the new currency of the entertainment industry, what does the future hold for music, fandom and digital innovation? This is one I'm particularly excited about as a big music guy. So let's get my guest onto the podcast now. So thank you for joining me on the show today, Nick. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

[00:01:19] Nick Holmston Yeah, thank you for having me first, Neil. My name is Nick Holmston. I've been in the music and tech and entertainment kind of intersection for quite a long period of time. So I would say like my I have a journey like a lot of people. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life, been very into music.

[00:01:38] So I actually took a sidestep to do some musical things during a couple of years. And then when the music industry kind of went very dark, especially in the Nordic countries because of piracy. Nick Holmston We started to build a lot of companies in Sweden and everybody probably knows about the Spotify and the SoundCloud of the worlds. And I did a lot of startups. But eventually I realized that Spotify was becoming the future of the music industry.

[00:02:05] So we I founded a company or Tunigo that was acquired by Spotify in 2013. And that was basically how Spotify playlist was born. I stayed there and became the global head of music was an incredible journey sitting in the front seat when a whole industry kind of transformed.

[00:02:23] So very blessed about that and happy. After that, I am. I did a new venture called TSX Entertainment, where we brought entertainment back to Times Square with these, you know, huge performances by the Post Malone and the Shakira and an integrated immersive experience with the biggest billboard at Times Square.

[00:02:43] I did that for four and a half year. Right now, I'm working on a new startup trying to solve the problems, which I think is the most important one right now, how tech can help, you know, solve the problem between relationship between artists and fans. That was a little bit about me. I'm Swedish living in New York right now since seven years. Love it. And you're incredibly modest, too, because you've been called the creator of Spotify playlist, which is a huge thing.

[00:03:12] And looking back, tell me a little bit more about Tunigo and how the acquisition by Spotify would ultimately transform the way that people discover music. Right. Yeah, it's a fascinating time because it's easy to forget the fact that when I say to people that before the acquisition of Tunigo in 2013, Spotify didn't have any on playlist, which today feels pretty crazy.

[00:03:37] But stepping back a little bit, I think the hypothesis and the strategy that we were thinking about with the team at Tunigo at that time was that when you've been so adopted in the music industry for so many years and you have seen this different kind of evolution changing and changing in the formats.

[00:03:55] I think this one was a total change because we went from a traditional kind of retail world where it was very transactional and meaning that if you were limited a little bit about how much record you actually have because of how much money you had, basically. And there was only like fanatics that spend everything and have these record collections.

[00:04:20] So most of the people at the time actually got their music curated from like radio or TV or wherever you find your music and maybe went into a store every December to buy a record.

[00:04:32] So the hypothesis when we started Tunigo was that if we go from a retail based, transactional based industry into an engagement models where everyone in the world will have basically all the music that exists at their fingertips in their phone, we're going to run into other challenges. And Spotify in the beginning and Spotify in the beginning and the early days was really a platform that was based on people that were really into music.

[00:05:00] So it was, I would say like very hipster mentality, people that are really music buffs, but the mainstream people was not really there. So we believe that when the moment happens, when mainstream people and basically radio and record stores kind of come together, we will get to 75% that usually didn't go into record stores to come in and become freemius subscribers. And they need to be navigating music in some way.

[00:05:28] So what we did was basically building an infrastructure around playlists and thinking about other ways to basically tag up these playlists and find them with different kind of context. And that was the big revolution at the time that if you listen to music and every music is available, maybe it's not just about playing your, you know, like 10, 20 favorite songs 24-7.

[00:05:53] So you're going to have moments when you wake up with your partner on a Sunday morning, when you play with your kids or when you go to the gym or go on a walk or do meditation. So it was really like more like a context driven kind of thinking yourself of a genre driven style. So we started to create completely new genres within the world of music that was more related to the different moments in life. And this became extremely successful.

[00:06:18] And we became a partner to Spotify when they have actually an app platform and the Tunigo app, which had a completely new function where different categories of music becomes one of the most popular ones out there. And it became so popular. So in Sweden, we did a big deal with Tunigo with a big telco. And it was also part of the Spotify that actually took Tunigo to become the most popular music app or app overall in Sweden.

[00:06:46] And I think that got the attention of Daniel and Martin at Spotify. So they approached me and say like, hey, we think you will do a better job of doing this inside our company. So we are interested to acquire you. And the acquisition happened in 2013. And as they said, everything after that is a story.

[00:07:05] And I was able to bring the whole team in there and also got the resources that we're hoping for to get someday to really build this out as a global truck systems with in the programming and editorial piece. And that was when Spotify was born. And that was when they released in, I think, September 23rd in the browse functions where they have category of playlists. Wow, what an amazing story.

[00:07:33] And I'm curious, from that unique journey that you've been on and you went on to be Spotify's global head of music, what lessons did you learn from that whole experience? And how has it influenced your entrepreneurial ventures since then too? Yeah, I mean, like it is a rollercoaster ride because I always say that like I have everything to thank for when it comes to, you know,

[00:07:58] the timing and the timing and the luck and everything when we build this company and we're able to fit so perfect into that new model of the music industry that led to that position that you could suddenly in a very conservative industry that hasn't really seen dramatic change.

[00:08:14] And suddenly I came there from Sweden, you know, and came into an industry which was structured in a completely different way with very few, I would say, like people with a lot of powers, gatekeepers that capped the industry in check, so to speak.

[00:08:31] But I think what Spotify did and what Playlist did and what happened at this time was that it changed so dramatically because suddenly basically anyone could, because of the technology of recording music, could create music and get their music in front of people. It was not possible.

[00:08:50] So, so I usually say that like the biggest takeaway of me that I'm always reflecting on afterwards is that in an industry that is so built around the legacy of being in the industry when it's changed, it got you like an insight into how it works. And also it was very educational, I think, for the industry to get that information. And suddenly people rethought the process of the value of music.

[00:09:19] I remember things like normally like a music release maybe had a lifetime of six months, you know, and hopefully that was like a great assist album or something coming down, further down the road. But suddenly you were looking at revenue streams over decades, you know, like, and that took, I think, years until the industry really understood, you know, how valuable music content is in this new world.

[00:09:44] And suddenly, like the thing that was so driven by the industry that was always about the latest releases that week. Suddenly you saw people, young kids, you know, finding music that was released in the 70s and 80s and 90s, you know, for all different things. So for me, it's really like the most dramatic change I ever experienced.

[00:10:05] And I cannot tell you, Neil, how grateful I am and the perspective to be able to sit there and see how that industry changed and also feeling that we were such a huge part of making these more into meritocracy and breaking barriers, creating transparency in the industry. So, yeah, it was an incredible journey. And it's helped me a lot moving forward to understand that everything is kind of possible. That was, you know, coming from Sweden.

[00:10:34] It was fascinating to see a company like Spotify. And looking at today, I think it's only the IKEA that has been higher valued as a company than Spotify or the industry companies that Spotify, Sweden has produced over the years. And I read that before you came on the podcast today that you argue that fans in today, music fans are today's marketers for brands and artists alike.

[00:11:00] So the question I have to ask is how can pop culture brands and artists, how can they adapt to this new reality? Yeah, I think it's a complete new framework. And as you know, I was so into it. So I actually released a book about that called Fan Power Futures.

[00:11:16] And what I learned over these years was that when I would say like that system that existed, you know, like in a traditional retail world with, you know, mainstream media, advertising, TV, you know, print. When technology changed all that, it not only become an engagement model when it comes to consumption of the content, but it also becomes an engagement model when it comes to market content.

[00:11:43] And we have seen this in a lot of shapes and forms over the years. But now when it looks to the traditional way of really cutting through the noise, the old way that you used to advertise is gone. There's a completely new set of rules when you want to reach out with your message. And we know, and we see it all the time, that when companies trying to be social on social media to build some kind of engagement, it doesn't work.

[00:12:10] But if people that are like really authentic bring that message to other friends or the people that follow them, we know it's way more powerful. So I think when it comes to brands today, it's, it's comes to a lot of like key points you need to think about.

[00:12:29] And I, and, and the people that are successful in this new world of pop culture brands are the people that are authentic, which could in some way communicate like what they stand for, their values to the consumers. So they kind of adopt that brands and put that into their own identity.

[00:12:49] So what I mean with that is that the music is probably the strongest kind of relationship you have seen, because now when artists taking control over their rights and it's a different structure there compared to all labels, they have these direct relationship in a different way. Right now it is for social media. Yeah. But fans, like I said, the fans hire you, but they fire you. It's also like fans expect so much more in return today.

[00:13:15] They are just not happy of, of just not being recognized for their hard work. So they are, they are a little bit more eager to feel that they are appreciated. And it's about that dynamic that I think is the biggest change right now.

[00:13:31] What is the reward mechanism when actually for all these people that talk to their followers and friends or whatever it is around whatever brand it is in pop culture, if it's like a fashion brand or if it's like an artist, they expect starting to expect something like a recognition in return.

[00:13:50] And that is what I mean, you know, like that these are the future of the marketeers and any brand today needs to really build a long-term trusted relationship with their, and I like to say fans, but we can kind of rebrand it and say like consumers. But I think if you rethink what a consumer is to a fan, if it's an emotional connection, that is the way you need to think about that relationship moving forward. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%.

[00:14:18] And if we dig a little bit deeper on that, in your book, In Fan Powered Futures, you emphasize that brands should shift that traditional broadcast model to engagement-driven strategies. For anyone who's listening, any business leader, we're setting off those alarm bells or light bulb moments right now. Can you elaborate on that transition and its importance too? Yeah, and I think we have seen that, you know, in a lot of different ways.

[00:14:45] I usually say that a thing that people remember in the old days when you market something in any way, it was usually based when I grew up and you grew up and everyone, you know, like in our age is, it was really based on the fact that it was usually market around the quality and the price. That was the two kind of most important thing in every advertising.

[00:15:09] And then we saw the change coming in, I would say like in the end of the 90s, early 2000, it becomes more like a lifestyle marketing machinery. But when these things disappear, meaning like it's not a one-way broadcast communication today, that is the interesting thing.

[00:15:30] Because if you put up something to the people online, because that's the way you advertise and hopefully you do it through a feed or something like that, you want to be able to put your brand into a context. People are going to react on that. And they're going to react very fast. If they see something they don't like, they got to tell you. So it's a two-directional thing. So you have to kind of go back and think about a lot of things what you stand for.

[00:15:57] Because what I think is that where the quality and price has been replaced, today it's more about like access, exclusivity, you know, like and feeling recognized. You know, like it's a little bit like you're buying into a fandom. We have seen that. I mean, I grew up when Apple was really like a fandom and everybody that kind of loved Apple talked about it. We have seen it in other brands. Like when Tesla came out, it also become that.

[00:16:26] And then a lot of fashion brands, and this is obvious, you know, when it comes to artists, brands and stuff like that, that they have that leverage. And there is like, if you, I usually say that either you are on the entertainment side of things or you're on the utility side of things.

[00:16:43] So if you are an electricity company or, you know, like water bill or whatever you do, like in that industry, you, the only thing that people want to engage with you is that they want to have transparency, simple and easy in technology. I think banking is a great example. You want to get in there quick. You want to be doing everything. I want to save time. When it comes to entertainment, and I would say like everything else that is not a utility is actually competing about that attention at that time.

[00:17:13] So if you back out for a little bit and think about like a young person today, like when you release a record or do whatever, if you want to release a new fashion product or a movie or a new game or whatever, you compete with everything within entertainment because you compete about time. And that's why, you know, like why should people spend that time? Why should they lean into your communicator?

[00:17:37] And that's where I think you need to build long-term relationship that has these kind of exchange models and the reward system. We have seen that like loyalty with brands where you like them and you feel rewarded is really, really working. We have seen that in hotels and airlines and a lot of other things where you can do that. But I think that is the mechanism that needs to be put in.

[00:18:03] And it needs to be in a way that it's like this symbiotic relationship, which it helps you to have that relationship with your fans. But you need to be extremely transparent. You can't lie anymore. Like you have to go back to your values, the platform, the wall. What do we stand for? So that is like a very deeper conversation of what I think is happening here. And I think a lot of people have been really good or figure out like how to communicate that.

[00:18:32] And other brands have not really sorted it out. But that will be the only way, you know, in the future to be able to promote and amplify your message. And you mentioned a word there, transparent, a need for greater transparency. And there has been a lot of hype around Web3 transforming the entertainment space. One word that immediately springs to mind is blockchain, of course, which would give that transparency.

[00:18:57] So what role do you see blockchain and reward systems in transforming that artist, fan and brand fan relationships playing? Yeah, I definitely am. I'm really positive to the whole kind of blockchain technology. I think, you know, like every technology when it comes is going to be used in the wrong way, which I think it always drags a lot of fraud and stuff like that.

[00:19:24] And that's why I think like the NFT kind of become a dirty word. In some way, it also kind of reflected into the blockchain as technology. I'm a big believer in blockchain. I think that is a transparency that we need in some way to do because it solves a lot of problems if we do that. First of all, like you say, the transparency around it. But it also verifies a lot of things that it's a problem today.

[00:19:48] I think one of the biggest problems we see in the music industry is actually scalping on tickets, you know, like the secondary markets and stuff like that. Which really, I don't understand like how that really can happen because any artist you speak to, they want to set the face value on their tour tickets. They don't want to overcharge their fans, you know.

[00:20:10] But if, let's say, Align Nation is the promoter of the show and the artists don't want to do secondary, meaning like they don't want to have an upside on the sales. So they tell Ticketmaster not to have a secondary sales. There's still so many players, the subhubs of the world that do that.

[00:20:31] So immediately you see that change from where, you know, an artist want to build a relationship with a fan and puts out a hundred dollar ticket, you know, for a seat. And then eventually the fans end up desperately, you know, harassing their parents to buy a new split ticket for $2,500 on a secondary.

[00:20:51] And this is so easily fixed because in France, for example, they have a system where it says like you can never resell a ticket for more than 15% of the face value, which will solve that problem. But I think it's more intuitive than that. I think this is a model that kind of keeps up the touring, but it's so bad for the artists and the fans long term.

[00:21:13] So there is a typical way, how different ways to verify objects and making sure the ownership and how it's being, you know, like resold and stuff like that, where technologies like blockchain can be very, very helpful. And of course, today we've talked about the journey from creating the first Spotify playlist to Web3 models, blockchain and a futuristic mindset. And you've been on this journey right from the beginning.

[00:21:40] So how have you seen fan behavior change over the last decade? And what do you think the music industry needs to do to adapt as it continuously evolves again? Yeah, I think if we go up a little macro level, I think the biggest change that's actually happened when it comes to ownership. If you look at the industry today, I mean, the record labels, the major record labels that everybody knows about,

[00:22:04] they will be extremely successful because of the content they already have paid for and own, meaning like back catalog, which has a tremendous value. When it comes to frontline releases, meaning new records that comes out, we have seen a dramatic shift from artists go independent and then instead license the content back on completely different terms to the labels. That is, you know, the massive change.

[00:22:33] When that happens, you kind of change the playing field. So in my opinion is that if the artist now controls the rights, we know the tailors, the drakes of the world, and it's just going to be more and more of these artists that take control of all their rights and they license back instead on other terms.

[00:22:55] That means that the record labels don't have, you know, like that extra budget for marketing in the same way where they used to put on maybe 20% of marketing. That comes back a little bit to the artists in the future because they own it. They need to think about it. From that perspective, if I'm looking at it from a very simple structure, is that like, who are they marketing to? Yeah, they're marketing to the fans. And what is the marketing channels? It's the fans.

[00:23:23] What can you give the fans? In the old world, you used to give, you know, you set aside 20% of marketing records. Like, can you in some way give back something to the fans? I don't think they're looking after, you know, monetary, like, five currency. They're looking for experience.

[00:23:43] So I think there's an interesting exchange model that I am very bullish on where I think blockchain and other things will be an important players where, you know, if you look at the fans 20 years ago, they didn't expect to get a picture with their, you know, the global superstar. Today, like a 40-year-old kid, like, expect to get a selfie with Taylor. Like, and if she doesn't get it, like, she's got to be vocal about it, you know, if she had a chance.

[00:24:12] So that transparency means that that relationship is almost like a friendship today. But they started to become more in a way, and I'm going to give you one example more why I believe that this is the model. But if you think about all the other brands, they use maybe big influencers to communicate their message or a network of small influencers. Artists are in the same position.

[00:24:37] Like, so imagine that you can activate your fan base, you know, like, to get your message out and amplify whatever you do. You have the ability to do that. But I think that fans will ask for something in return. The question is what that is. But there, I think, like, the big opportunity for how technology can solve a completely new kind of old world when it comes to that relationship between brands and fans.

[00:25:03] And I've referenced your book a few times today, which is called Fan-Powered Futures, Shaping the Future of Spotify and Times Square Through Fan Innovation. And I've got to ask, what was it inspired you to write the book? And what is it that you hope that readers will take away from that, too? First of all, like, I just felt it was like such a surreal story when I was thinking about myself, you know, growing up in a small city in Sweden. I was totally into, you know, the music industry.

[00:25:33] Loved, first of all, like Times Square music. And for me, like Times Square in the 90s, you know, in the end of the 90s was like the epicenter of entertainment. But I felt the blessing of first being able to time this incredible kind of revolution with streaming and be part of that journey was like so many stories, you know, and so many learnings. And then on top of that, also get the chance to transform Times Square, which was always like a childhood dream for someone.

[00:26:01] But I felt like there was a story to be told, a little bit about, like, what I have learned and how I see the future changing, but also kind of embed these crazy stories that's in the book around what's always happening when something dramatic is changing. So it was just something I needed to get out of me. And I felt when I actually got the book done, which was way, way more work than I thought. And it took me almost a year to do it.

[00:26:28] Like, it was a relief because it felt like now I can move on, like, because I needed to tell the story in some kind of context. At the same time, I was really passionate about the conversations about, you know, the future of these brand fans, artist fans relationship. So it was also a way to kind of put my name out there in the conversation, you know, like, and to be able to have these conversations with you and other people around, like,

[00:26:55] how is technology playing into this challenge that is, I think, for every brand today that want to be a top of the mind brands for that new generation. And that's just, it's just a huge passion. I don't see it as a work. I see it as like an incredible blessing to tell my story and at the same time continue the conversation about what's next.

[00:27:20] And I'm conscious there could be a wannabe entrepreneur listening to your words, feeling inspired, sitting in a small town many, many thousands of miles away from New York. What advice would you give to that person looking to innovate at the intersection of entertainment, technology and hospitality and everything in between that? They do feel that they are, you know, kind of out of it, but they want to pursue their dream. Any advice you'd give to that person? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:48] So I can look at my younger self and I can see how many doubts I have around. If, for example, you have an idea and you want to do it and you get rejected so many times, you start a doubt, like, is this going to work? You know, like, and no one really believes in you. I think you need to first validate in some shape or form because I totally believe in the meritocracy and I believe in being contrarian.

[00:28:15] I don't expect people to, you know, say that that's brilliant because people will not say that. So if you expect that, it's not going to happen. But in the end, if you can verify that you are a talented person and you believe in yourself and all these different things, I honestly believe that the only thing that separates like a winner from a loser is that a winner is a loser who never gives up. I think it's about the marathon. I think people expecting too much in return too fast.

[00:28:44] I always say, like, it doesn't matter what business you start, it's going to take you five years until you see some kind of result of it. And I think every person just jumped into this project and they expected, you know, these kind of verification or return or seeing that this turned into business way too early. And I think that is where people give up.

[00:29:08] So I totally encourage and I actually think that there is something great about coming from a small city somewhere because you haven't been destroyed by the big city competition, which I think people feel in larger cities. So for me, to move to New York, you know, like when you already have had some success, it really makes you realize that it's way, way easier when you have been able to get through these first humps.

[00:29:38] But I was a guy, Neil, you know, like, I believe, you know, I can tell you, it's always a crazy story. So just before a few months before the acquisition happened, I was in a position where the investors of Tuner didn't want to put in more money. We were running out of money. And I think every entrepreneur is going to tell you the same story. We had a payroll coming up and I had this meeting with a telco.

[00:30:03] And I remember leaving the office and being the team sharing, you know, because we were so into it, like, and giving me, you know, like, go get them, get the money. And I said, like, I need to get at least, you know, like a million Swedish kroners to be able to save the payroll. So, and I go there, you know, I have these meetings with this multi-huge telco in Sweden. And we had a relationship with them, came up with a plan how we could help them.

[00:30:31] They loved the concept and accepted the deal. The problem was that I asked for, like, these public massive company, like, if they could pay us, like, in a few days, which they never have done in their life. But in some weird way, they helped us out and we got the payment in a few days. And that helped us with that, you know, payroll. And the campaign then drove this app into the top, which led to the acquisition of Spotify.

[00:31:00] So, what I want to say with that is that I believed in a lot of times that I might not have what it takes to get there, you know, like, but I was very bullish of trying. And I was so close of failing so many times. So, I think that, like, the mindset that you need to do is that the resilience and your way to keep pushing is what's going to take you over that hump, you know. But it's always going to be these dramatic situations where you feel like, oh, this is going to go to hell.

[00:31:30] And you just need to push it through. And I think everyone's going to tell you the same story about these things. And it's scary when you think back on them. But that is the reality. And I encourage everyone to keep pushing. You know, don't give up. It's going to succeed. It's a different world right now. The people that really has the strength of keeping going usually get successful in the app. Wow. Inspiring words. And what a fantastic story as well.

[00:31:59] And completely on the other end of the scale for that business leader or marketer, maybe they're finding that their old ways of doing things are no longer resonating with their audiences. If you could change one thing about how brands currently approach their audiences, what would it be? Yeah. I think just changing the perception. I usually say that to people when they ask me, like, but I'm in this industry. How should I do this?

[00:32:27] I say, like, if you just change, you know, like the wording when you usually use consumers, which is for me, consumer is basically like a line item over financial models, where you say, like, I have X amount of consumers. They're spending this amount. This is my profit. When you put the word fans there, it takes away a little bit of, you know, like that perception of what they are.

[00:32:54] And you start to say, like, OK, if someone is a fan of your brands, they need to be a fan of something. Because there's a huge difference of leaning into a brand. So the first thing was, like, do I have the ability to create a fandom around my brand? Or at least making sure that I am an essential piece of people's lives. So they want to add that brand into their brand library that define them as individuals. Because that's the honest truth.

[00:33:23] Like, we all are very selective around which car we drive, what clothes we buy, you know, like, whatever it is that we do. Like, what shows we're looking at, we are very defined around that thing. And you just need to ask yourselves, going back to the questions like, where is my brand sitting in this world? Do I see that I can think about this from a fan's perspective? And when I'm coming to that thing and I can look at my consumers, they're like, how can I build a deeper relationship with my consumers?

[00:33:53] Is there a way I can give back to them if they engage with me? And I think there's where it starts. And then when you have made that decision, I think it's all about, like, you need to be able to communicate this in the channels where people spend their time scrolling on their phones. How is my message sitting there, you know, together with all these other messages? Is it standing out? Is it making sense? Is this helping me to build?

[00:34:19] So it's a long journey, but I think everybody needs to think about, like, where they want to position their brands. If they are more of a utility brand, like, you can still be really good at that. But then it's about, like, trying to find ways how you can save time for people. Because that's going to be your upside, you know, like, and why people are going to still like you and spend your time. Simplicity and time saving. And the other one is all about entertaining.

[00:34:45] How can I bring something in that makes these people feel recognized, reported in some ways to keep building that relationship? Well, thank you so much for sitting down with me today. So many valuable takeaways for everybody listening, no matter what role they currently have, where they're listening in the world. And for years now, I've all been I've been finishing my podcast by asking my guests to add a song to our Spotify playlist.

[00:35:10] And I must admit, I'd never in my wildest dreams thought that one day I would have an opportunity to ask that question to the creator of Spotify playlist. So before I let you go, can you share a song that we add to that list? Oh, gosh, this is the that is probably most difficult questions that I I would I would I would think about, you know, like it is. I'm a very broad music guy.

[00:35:37] But let me see, like, if I can come up with something that I that I feel is something that stands out and interesting, or I can give you more like a context on my my thinking. I like where I'm coming from, I always like, super excited when people are able to shame something, you know, in the music industry and open up a new genre.

[00:35:59] That's why I love artists like Billie Eilish have done, you're like, what's Malone did when he came like someone that really steps in and be versatile. I think my absolute favorite artist is probably Jose Malone. And that is based on two things. Number one is that he's the absolute nicest person you're going to meet in your life.

[00:36:22] And he has been able to do certain things that I think is incredible, that he has been transitioned through different genres in a way that no one has been able to do before. And I think his new country album is is incredible. So let me take something that is very simple.

[00:36:41] I would say, like, I had some help in Morgan Wallen with Post Malone will be my track because that's defined a guy that has been able to have the most, I think, most songs that have streams more than one billion streams on Spotify. And also have been able to go from like hip hop into rock to pop to country. And it's just mind blowing for me, especially when I think about him as a person. I was a long run there.

[00:37:11] Not at all. It was a perfect choice. I'm adding that straight to a Spotify playlist. And obviously, we've talked about so much today. But for anyone listening wanting to check out your book, find out more about you or dig a little bit deep on anything we talked about, where would you like to point everyone listening to that? Yeah. So if it's about the book and a little bit of story around that, you can go to nickholmstam.com. And if you want to follow me, I think I'm mostly active on Instagram.

[00:37:38] And my tag is nickmanic, M-I-C-K-M-A-N-I-C. There's where you'll find me. Fantastic. I'll add links to everything so listeners can find you nice and easy. I do urge them to check out your book there. We've covered a lot of it today from the evolution of the music industry, the role of technology, and some of the reflections from you there on how fan behavior in the music industry have evolved over the last decade,

[00:38:08] but also where it's heading and especially the role of Web3, blockchain, so many other exciting things happening. But thank you for sharing your story with me today. Yeah. Thank you, Neil, for having me. It's been a pleasure. Wow. From revolutionizing how we discover music to redefining fan engagement, Nick has been at the forefront of some of the biggest shifts in the entertainment industry. And some of the big takeaways from our conversation today is fans, not labels or advertisers.

[00:38:36] It is the fans that are driving artists' success in this new streaming era. And I say new streaming era. We're kind of used to it now. It's been around for a long time. And the next generation could be blockchain and Web3. That could change the game for transparency, ticketing, artist-fan interactions. And with more artists going independent, reclaiming control over their music and their careers,

[00:38:59] I think brands in every industry need to maybe rethink their audiences as fans, not just consumers. And that way, they might succeed in building deeper loyalty. So as technology continues reshaping entertainment, what's next for music, artists, fan-driven experiences? You've heard from Nick today. You've heard a little from me. Let's keep the conversation going. You've probably got a lot more experience and insights in this space than myself.

[00:39:29] So please share your thoughts. Techblogwriteroutlook.com, LinkedIn, X, Instagram, just at Neil C. Hughes. But right now, it's time for me to add that track to the Spotify playlist and refresh my memory on some of the great songs that have been posted over there. So I'll be checking that out and I'll return again tomorrow with another interview. Speak with you then. Bye for now.