3252: How Sonata Software Is Shaping the Next Era of Intelligent Business

[00:00:04] The digital world is indeed evolving faster than ever before, and businesses that fail to modernise risk, they're the ones that are falling behind. So what does modernisation engineering really mean as the pace of technological change continues to ramp up?

[00:00:21] Well, my guest today is the CTO of Sonata Software, and they are a leader in helping global enterprises transform their business with everything from AI, cloud and digital modernisation. And my guest brings with him a deep understanding of emerging technologies from generative AI to responsible first AI adoption.

[00:00:46] And also, he's going to talk about how companies can build scalable, resilient enterprises from core to edge to experience. So if you're wondering how to future proof your business, leverage AI responsibly and help stay ahead of the curve, this episode is packed with insights you're not going to want to miss. And with that stage set, it's time for me to officially introduce you to today's guest. So a massive warm welcome to the show.

[00:01:15] Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do? Hey Neil, great to be here and lovely talking to you as well. And so I'm currently the Chief Technology Officer at Sonata Software.

[00:01:30] And I think the initial part to a large extent have been implementing business applications of sorts, whether it was workflows, intranets, ERPs, various other enterprise applications with Fortune 500 organizations. And the second part is where I was handling product engineering and so on and so forth for very large product organizations.

[00:01:56] So think of it, I'd seen the world where you how people look at using the solution and then came to the world where we are building solutions for usage. And that gave me a unique insight. And then I ended up leading practices, which essentially create solutions and offerings that the business can use to make an impact to their business. So that's where I am. And as my role currently, I help organizations scale and continuously modernize themselves.

[00:02:26] Well, it's a pleasure to have you join me today because every single day I shine a light on a different part of the world and a different industry and try and understand how technology is impacting that area. And one of the things that attracted me to you was Sonata Software is known for its focus on on modernization of engineering. And that is a such a vast area right now. So I'm curious, though, because there's a lot of buzzwords around this kind of space.

[00:02:53] So how would you define modernization in today's landscape and what key challenges do enterprises face in this journey? Because it seems to be it's not it's a journey rather than a destination. But how would you define it? And you're so right, Neela, that it's actually defining in some way very aptly toward the journey. Right. And what should that journey look like? Where are you headed? Indirectionally, you know, you might be closer to the goal or further from the goal.

[00:03:22] But how do you go about it? Modernization is kind of our point of view on how you should look at technology helping your businesses. If you lay out the context of the global world today, there are wars going on. There are political instability in various parts of worlds and there are countless. And somebody told me when I had met him that there are about 100 wars, big or small, going around the world and stuff.

[00:03:50] The economy is not really the most stable, if I might. And there are surprises every other day. And there are some surprises recently with all the stuff that's going on in the Western part of the world. And so how does a business then kind of lead, right, and lead this change? And it essentially comes back to the premise that you already have something. You cannot discuss things in ab initio as if you don't have anything.

[00:04:19] So the journey is how do you modernize your business practices, business processes to adjust and continuously evolving world, right? So that's like the how does business evolve? And for that, technology is all that more critical that how does technology enable you to evolve, right? So if you think of it, I think there are three parts that one should look at. How do you reimagine? How do you modernize your business processes?

[00:04:49] How do you modernize your technology to serve that business processes? And how do you say continuously modernize? And I love this continuous modernization. It goes back to your journey stuff because I think eventually you are looking at a time because of the pace of change of technology that you will get it updated like you update your mobile OS updates, right? And that's the world you're heading towards.

[00:05:13] If you are going to take two, three years to build a new version of your solution or the next customer experience system or your next supply chain system, then you've already lost the battle, right? So that's our think of it, how we modernization helps you keep ahead of the curve by dominating future ecosystems to make your growth successful in an ever evolving world, right? So that's what we do if you look like. So in a simple way.

[00:05:42] And we deliver to the triple mandates, if you like, because nobody has a huge amount of money given the current economic outlook, right? How do you create efficiency out of your current spends? How do you use that savings to drive agility or agile technology framework, which can morph itself very quickly? And then how do you get future ready? Think of AI and stuff like that. How do you get ready for that work?

[00:06:08] So that's how we look at modernization from the philosophy to how do you want to execute it in a way. And I think we should also mention that generative AI is entering its third year now. It's continuously reshaping industries. But many business leaders out there, they're still struggling with adoption. And even those early adopters, those that managed to get the adoption early on, they're struggling with ROI of their tech projects too.

[00:06:38] So how are you at Sonata Software? How are you helping enterprises integrate generative AI into their digital transformation strategies and proving those real-world benefits, measurable impacts, and that elusive ROI that we keep hearing about? Yeah. Very interesting. And this is a topic I get asked and we discuss every other meeting, if you like. And I think there are two fundamental drivers, if you like, right?

[00:07:06] And I think where can business find a valuable or value in deploying AI? And what are those areas, right? Beyond, if you like, kind of, beyond just creating a bot or we are just creating an application which can summarize data or help you create an email or things like that. Right? So that's like, it really doesn't unlock productivity or value.

[00:07:33] So how do you find real-use business cases that you can find? That's, I think, one factor. And second is how do you deploy it in a secure, governed way where you are sure that your data is protected, you have got the right answers, you have people who need to have access, have access, and what we call responsible AI. I think these are the two things which inhibits the growth of AI.

[00:07:58] And we have more or less come to the view that I think you either use, when you are looking at modernizing your business process, you include AI as an integral part to reimagine your business process. That's the biggest value. And think of your, I meet customers all this time and we're just working on something very recently on customer experience, right? How is search going to change? How is people going to interact with you in future?

[00:08:25] Think of contact centers, think of customer experience systems, right? And that's where you can unlock huge amount of value, not just by taking, increasing or reducing the number of people involved, but actually more importantly, you can drive the productivity and better quality of responses, right? To when you interact with customers. So people see a lot of value because that directly leads to retention, leads to greater cross-sell, upsell, and people can visibly see that. So hence the appetite to invest on this.

[00:08:55] And it doesn't, and people also tend to then get, okay, even if I'm spending that much on the various elements of AI, which includes what LLMC use, what internal rag implementations you have, and how can you use the whole thing in a constructive manner. So the second part is that I think finding the real world users in the context of a business process rather than looking at isolated one application is the one to find value.

[00:09:25] So think of it, how do you look at the whole process and look at where agents can help, right? For example, if you look at the lead to opportunity versus. The second part of it is, I think when you do that, how are you assuring ourselves that you have done it in the most way that it is what you have got? You have got all your knowledge, intrinsic knowledge, and it is within your organization. So how do you deploy it in a way that is secure?

[00:09:54] Second is you can govern it. For example, Neil, you have and I have access to the data which we should have versus who don't, right? Because once you put it out, I think the role-based access is a big thing. Third is how do you make sure that because if you can ask the right amount of prompts, you can always have situations where you can cross jailbreak, you can cross various things, right? How do you ensure you can govern this? What kind of questions are being asked? What should be responded?

[00:10:22] Or simple things like how can you not have PII information flowing through your system and creating risk to your business? So I think we have come up with an eight-point way of defining responsible AI. And I think we can deploy that at scale independent of what the LLM is, right? And get done it. So that's how you can actually create a platform which gives them assurance that you have a governed way of deploying.

[00:10:50] Now, you couple these two things together. You see value or desirability. You increase the desirability of this solution because it impacts the business process. And the second part is you actually create assurance around the governance process, right? By deploying in a responsible way. Now, here's the way to unlock. But finally, I think we always advocate that you start, experience it and grow.

[00:11:15] And we see a lot of people now willing to more or less take a leap of faith. Another point, I think everybody's on a different journey if you look at it, right? Some are in experimentation. Some are in what I call it the four Ds, which is the discover, right? Design deploys internal. And then how do you use it to differentiate to how do you run your business? That's the four D journey, if you like, in my definition.

[00:11:43] And so we need to see where they are, right? And if they have not experimented, then it's wrong to say that you have big. Probably help them come and experiment, find the right value out of it, and then move them through the journey. I think both these things, I think, addresses. And we are seeing use cases on a few areas which seems to be now taking a little bit of momentum behind it. And AI governance is also something that's becoming a growing concern with business leaders.

[00:12:12] So on that side of things, what steps do you think businesses should be taking to ensure a more responsible first AI approach rather than just diving in headfirst and asking permission or worrying about it later? How do you at Sonata Software help clients implement ethical AI solutions that are responsible? I think something we are deeply passionate about. And we have defined our journey that whatever we do in some ways is responsible first in our approach.

[00:12:40] And we have created a platform called Armony.ai, which is a set of solution and services, but which gets deployed in a responsible first approach, right? So it essentially creates three or four, right? It allows your data to be protected. It allows governance on who can ask what and what cannot, right? Who has access? Think of it. Think of it.

[00:13:05] You have access to a few kind of bots and copilots and agents versus others. And we have something which we have now extended for the agent world, where it can govern the observability and management of agents. Similarly, how do you make sure that there is traceability and hence ethical way of using it? And you can actually put a hot, warm, cold kind of parameter on various aspects on what you want to govern in terms of what you want to allow within your organization.

[00:13:35] Because it's a trade-off between a little bit of creativity and what you can straight-jacketed answers, if you like. And certain scenarios might merit. If you are trying to create a very creative stuff, you can open it up. But if you want to do interpretation of your financial books, you might like a very straight-jacketed governance process, right? And then how do you secure your internal data from not going in? How do you secure your users?

[00:13:59] So we have created an eight-point responsible first framework, which we believe every organization should deploy in that way, which also includes, by the way, sustainability and cost, because one cannot ignore the element of cost and sustainability when we are doing all this. And then use it a holistic approach to deploy infrastructure platform for AI. We call it the creating the foundation for the AI enterprise, right? And that's the step you take.

[00:14:29] And then you create applications, because then you are assured that while you experiment with the business value, your governance piece is sorted. And I do want to emphasize that while there are different regulations around the world, I think we'll see increasing that space becoming in terms of what you need to comply with. And I think we should have a provision on how we can bring that compliance aspect in terms of regulatory laws for every industry,

[00:14:59] every country, if you like, Europe, UK, US, all will have different connotations of that. And I think one should be able to extend the infrastructure to enable that for as a common layer. And building a scalable and resilient enterprise also requires a strong foundation, something that we often forget. So how do you see modernization engineering evolving to support enterprises from the core to edge to experience?

[00:15:27] No, I think, again, a very interesting question, actually. And if you look at it fundamentally, whether AI and without AI, data is the core to agility, right? How do you consume and make data available? I know organizations who take about a month, month and a half to get data from the source to the decision makers, right? How do you make that speed to be in hours? Then days and certainly not months.

[00:15:56] That's one because then your whole cycle of business. So data, I think, is core. Then second, look at how do you can morph your application. And that's where I think a lot of this, what I called migration to intelligent apps is coming in, which is where you have service architectures, but service architectures,

[00:16:17] which can cater to what I call a common front end or a common, and I'll talk about it in it. And the common front end is where you have a common user experience, which is tailored to you and not necessarily tailored to just one application, right? Because the future is you will have your agents, you will have your co-pilots, you will have your dashboards and forms, and you will work the way you want, right? Because that's all together and that's going to sit on the edge.

[00:16:47] So the journey of moving your current architecture from technology perspective to this edge to work exactly where you want, who can get the data at the speed that which we are thinking of, and then process it even while you are asleep is the agility that we are thinking of. And I think the edge will get more and more importance because all the decision making and et cetera will be done from the edge. Think of it.

[00:17:17] And I think the modernization of intelligent apps of the future enables that. And while I talk of technology, because I have so much years of working on this, it's how you can change the business processes at a quick frequency, right? So if you are now doing a particular model, can you then, because you have a service architecture, you can now do a different model of business. And we'll talk about it in a bit if you have an opportunity.

[00:17:44] But how do modern ecosystems are evolving? I think that's an interesting piece because you need to model your business to work to this ecosystem. 100% with you there. And many companies are still struggling with balancing innovation and operational stability. All those business as usual tasks often take precedent. So are there any strategies that you'd recommend for businesses that are looking to modernize, but without disrupting their core operations? No, absolutely.

[00:18:14] I think no one can afford or realistically to swing that you can disrupt your operation. The global economy generally doesn't lend itself currently to a lot of spending and then awaiting for results. So that's not disruptive from a financial standpoint and not to talk about technology. But I think the first thing to look at is that whichever way you are doing it, what's your modernization journey looks like?

[00:18:43] I think so think of a plan. Second is how can you do whatever you are doing efficiently, right? And I think think of if I'm doing this book of work on technology today, hey, how can I do this at, say, a particular 25% more efficient than what we are, right? On various levers that you can. A lot of people are looking at, say, cloud repatriation as an option, right?

[00:19:09] People are looking at database being optimized, whether it's on cloud or on premise, so that your spends are coming down. So you are unlocking budgets. You're also becoming more efficient, right? So that's one thing. The second part is where do you find your funding? Second disruption is coming. How do you then create a, think of a way that you can deploy the technology without disrupting what's going on? And for that, I think the how we model our software development lifecycle,

[00:19:39] we have to change the philosophy of more like building like large platform companies, whether it's Amazon or Google. They don't have to disrupt themselves. They can continuously evolve. So how do you create a software development lifecycle, which is agile, which can create drops, which can be used by the business in short run, say, once every month, once every two months. And you can create small drops, not a large drop. But how can you then bring value to the business?

[00:20:06] And the reason I cop the software, because in a small incremental way, you are creating big steps towards moving towards the future rather than a big overall. And that stops the thing. And the last part is that how do you prioritize what is a big value to work on now based on the savings that you had? Where do you spend that part of money so that you can get value to the business? Because more you do that now, actually, everybody's looking forward to the next change.

[00:20:35] Much like if there's a new version on your mobile, Neil, you're also looking for what's the new thing that's coming? And maybe I want to try out the new feature. Right. So finally, that's the state where you want businesses to kind of look forward to the change coming in. And that's, I think, the three-layered approach one would take to not disrupt as well as be operationally effective in bringing it together. And at Sonata Software, you partner with all the major tech providers.

[00:21:04] And I mean, everything from Microsoft, AWS, and Google, et cetera. So I'm curious, from your point of view, how do these collaborations help you enhance that ability to drive transformation for global enterprises? I'd love to hear more about how these collaborations help you, or help you help your customers. Well, it's tremendous. I think one of the things we take pride ourselves with is that how we collaborate with these partners.

[00:21:31] And we see them as an integral part of our ecosystem of innovation. Right. We work with both AWS and Microsoft very, very closely. And one thing is that we, in many times, are part of programs where we are ahead of the curve. Nearly one year, and we are part of various councils, various groups, where we are ahead of the curve in looking at things.

[00:21:55] And that specifically, in my role, actually helps us take bets for the future, saying that, okay, this is something that we want to bet on. And I'll give some examples for you towards the end, but you take bets on.

[00:22:09] Second is, I think, because you're working with very high individuals on sides who are leaders in their own space, you can exchange notes, create a narrative which is innovative, which is leaders in terms of thought on how we want to approach their particular subject. So I think you create a differentiated way of looking at that and solving that problem. So that actually enables you because you are ahead, you are working with them, and you can then take a step back and do that.

[00:22:38] And third, but very important lever for us is that how do you then get work with them to transform your workforce to be ready for these changes? Because you also need that apart from what you can offer in terms of solutioning. So we have found it very, very helpful because even before we are deployed, we are in the process of think of co-innovating with them in understanding.

[00:23:02] And we also get the huge think of them as a multiplier of our capabilities or strengths in terms of they doing the research, they predicting the future, and we picking up parts and working with them. So last but not the least, because we are ahead of the curve, because we have innovated a particular solution which is differentiated in terms of how we approach the same problem, and we have got a workforce which is ready,

[00:23:29] we automatically become a preferred choice when you go to the market and work with their field force, right? And you have a story to tell that how you brought this offering to live in working with whether it's an AWS or a Microsoft. And that helps you accelerate your adoption. Recently, we did something with Microsoft Fabric, and we were among the launch partners in the world among the four or five that was there across the world.

[00:23:56] And that came clearly out of this kind of innovation that we picked up a trend about two, three years, a couple of years, I think, two years back, and then we bet on it. So it's an example of how we have helped build leadership into that particular space. And before you come on the podcast today, I was doing a little research on you.

[00:24:15] And one of the things that immediately stood out to me is that you've worked extensively across industries far and wide, from retail to CPG, manufacturing, banking, financial services, and insurance. With such a vast spectrum there, what emerging tech trends are you seeing shaping the future of every sector?

[00:24:36] I think while each sector has its small nuances, if you like, but I think two things I'll call out, Neil. One, of course, is I think organizations have to believe and understand that they are working in an evolving ecosystem. That one, they are part of an ecosystem. They are not an organization in unison, which is us.

[00:25:03] So you're part of the whole supply chain because you can find many other ways to drive growth. And I've found many examples where people have looked at themselves and found partnerships or collaboration or mergers in which they can unlock value much faster than if you had to do it all on your own. So I think to look at it as an ecosystem is common. Think of retail, think of banking. There are very many players which can enable you.

[00:25:31] And things like AI only makes it all the more important that we have a circle of partnership which enables you to go faster. So think of one as the ecosystem. The second trend I would think, again, without getting into the specifics of every industry, is how the customer experience will be redefined, especially with AI.

[00:25:58] How will the future of customer experience look like for your industry? And I think knowing our customer and customer 360, which we have spoken about for some time now, is all that more important. But it is that much more important because if you are going to deploy an agent for future, and if it doesn't have the same intrinsic knowledge about what you have as an organization or an individual about the other company or the person you're interacting with,

[00:26:26] then you just got a wrong usage of an agent, for example. Right. So the whole customer experience layer is getting redefined in its own way. Right. Both technology can and how you are manifesting. So one needs to keep a very close eye on how that. And I do believe that people who do this both, that look at the ecosystem as a driver for growth, and people who look at how their customer experience systems will evolve, will probably have an edge in terms of growth. Right.

[00:26:56] And there's competition knocking at your door every day. There's a startup every other day on every other corner of the world who's trying to solve some problem of which you are part of. Right. So you have to be awake to this and then find a way to leverage or work with them or be ahead of them. Right. In some way. So that's how I think the two things that stand up. And we started our conversation today focusing on the world of engineering.

[00:27:22] So as we come full circle now, looking ahead, what would your vision be for how modernization or modernizing engineering will evolve over the next three to five years, which I appreciate is an impossible question to answer with the speed of technological change right now. But how do you at Sonata Software position yourself for a future in this space too? Yeah. No, I think we are looking at how we all want to create a platform of scale for you.

[00:27:52] Platforms of scale of how do you create platforms which are business scale and technology that enables you to scale in some way. And that we do by providing creating agility into your business. Right. And how you get future ready in things of it. My vision is that if you and our vision in some way is that if you are able to think of a business idea on how to implement it. Right.

[00:28:16] Your technology is right behind you to implement it in days and weeks and not in months and years. Right. So if you have a new way of saying that I want to do distribution of a particular thing or how I want to get to approach a new set of clients for my credit cards. Right. You have a implementing this with technology at a speed which is much faster than others. Right. Which gives the edge to implement.

[00:28:45] I think at the end of it, if you look at differentiation is going to come from the agility of how businesses can morph to the changing requirements. Right. And if that's the case, the vision is that how do you enable that platform that can continuously modernize much like a mobile like I gave an example. Right. So that you can quickly implement an idea. Hopefully succeed. If not fail, learn from it and then re-implement it. And that's where the vision is, so to speak.

[00:29:11] And just to finish on, I think that one thing that we all have in common, people listening to this podcast today in 165 different countries and everyone, including myself, I think, feels this pressure to be in a state of continuous learning to keep up with things. And as someone that is leading the way in this industry, you must feel it more than most. So I've got to ask, where or how do you self-educate? How do you keep up to speed with everything? I think there might be a few tips here for people listening to anything you can share.

[00:29:42] I think this is a very interesting topic and a topic very dear to me, if you like. And I think learning itself as I think learning is a capability and one needs to build it. And I think it runs in two, three cycles, if you like, or two, three steps, I think is to look at something, read something, consume something.

[00:30:06] And I said read and consume on the same breath because you also consume content and you find locations to consume content. Right. And read about the content in some way. But how do you reflect on it to find what is the best usage for that? Apply it in some form. And then how do you learn? That's where I think wisdom comes from. And that's what can lead to a sustained learning, I think, as a cycle. But my particular way is that I've tried to find all sources.

[00:30:34] I typically spend some dedicated time, especially over the weekend, really working hands-on on certain set of new technologies. Right. So whether it's agents or something and I because without being hands-on, you only understand that much. I spend some time. I consume lots of driving is a great time for me if I'm driving or on a car. But listening to podcasts, listening to various things and even tech news that you get and stuff. So I just use that time.

[00:31:04] And a lot of books and are quite unlike others. I like physical books. So I carry one book with me at a time. And we did something about it. And last but not least, every interaction like this interaction is a learning in some way. Right. If you take back and some questions would have prompted me to think, OK, is that a different answer to this? And that's when you reflect back, you get a learning or a wisdom. So that's a cycle.

[00:31:31] And that's really the energizing part, the key part, that how do you keep on learning and then find new applications, new usage of the same things in different ways. Fantastic advice. So much gold in your answer there. And for people listening, wanting to find out more information about Sonata Software, how you might be able to help browse for your case studies and maybe even contact you or your team.

[00:31:58] Is there any way you'd like to a one stop shop that you'd like to point everyone listening where they can find out more information? No, absolutely. Please go to our website, sonata-software.com. That's our website. You'll find a lot of contents. We are happy. We are available on LinkedIn. We are available on social channels. Right. So feel free to write to us. I'm available on LinkedIn. If you reach out, happy to correspond.

[00:32:24] And a lot of our leadership all are available to you. So, but I would recommend our website and our social posts as the best way to connect with us. And then we can take it from there. And I would urge everyone listening to follow you on those social channels. So much great news that you post on there on a regular basis.

[00:32:44] And today, I mean, we covered generative AI, Sonata's contribution in the area, the key drivers toward ensuring responsible first AI and how to build a scalable and resilient enterprise right from core to edge to experience. So much gold in there. Hope everyone listening enjoyed it as much as I did. But more than anything, just thank you for joining today and sharing your story. Really appreciate your time. Thank you, Neil. It was lovely talking to you. Okay. Great setup question. I love this interaction. Thank you very much.

[00:33:12] So modernization isn't a one-time project. It's a continuous journey. And as my guest highlighted today, in this fast-moving world of tech, it's also about balancing efficiency, agility, and future readiness, all while ensuring AI is developed. It's deployed responsibly and securely.

[00:33:31] So thank you to my guest today for sharing Sonata's software approach to digital transformation, the power of AI in reimagining business processes, and also for sharing why companies need a structured, scalable modernization strategy in order to remain competitive. But this is just one of many stories in the world. How are you seeing AI impact modernization in your industry, in your organization?

[00:33:59] As always, let's keep this conversation going. Tech blog right to Outlook.com. LinkedIn. X. Instagram. Just at Neil C. Hughes. But I'm afraid we've reached that time of the day where it's time for me to put away my microphone and prepare for another guest for your listening pleasure tomorrow. So while I get my game face on, I'm going to sit in my favorite chair, have a glass of whiskey, all before I return to talk with you again tomorrow. Speak with you now. Bye for now. Bye for now.

[00:34:35] Bye for now.