From Digital Gold To DeFi Liquidity: The Threshold Network Vision For Bitcoin

[00:00:04] - [Speaker 0]
What does the latest Bitcoin market pullback really tell us about where the ecosystem is heading next? Well, my guest today, he spends his time inside the plumbing of on chain finance, thinking about how Bitcoin moves, how it earns, and how it evolves beyond simply sitting still. So from market volatility and institutional inflows to trust, custody, and the future of programmable Bitcoin. My conversation today will cut past the headlines and into how capital actually behaves on chain. And we'll talk about why Bitcoin is starting to look less like digital gold buried in the backyard and more like productive capital with real world utility.

[00:00:53] - [Speaker 0]
And we'll also talk about threshold. So much to get through today. So if you're curious about what changes when Bitcoin stops being passive and starts going to work, you should love this one. But enough from me. Let me introduce you to my guest right now.

[00:01:10] - [Speaker 0]
So a massive warm welcome to the show. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

[00:01:18] - [Speaker 1]
Absolutely. And thanks for having me. My name's, Callanth. I'm the CPO at Threshold Labs, and, we're developing, decentralized wrapped Bitcoin protocol called TBTC, which is effectively a way of putting your Bitcoin to use in DeFi, accessing the global liquidity that's developing in the Bitcoin economy on chain. And we're basically connecting the dots between the different players of the Bitcoin economy using the best infrastructure that's out there, which is blockchain.

[00:01:47] - [Speaker 1]
So we can get into more details about threshold and and TBTC in the future, but, my role there is cofounder and CPO. So I I develop, some of the the products, strategy and decisions, and, we're responsible for the growth and and protocol development of TBTC. So, yeah, that's the background.

[00:02:08] - [Speaker 0]
Awesome. And I am looking forward to digging a lot deeper into all things threshold in a minute and the things that you're doing there. But, of course, as we record this podcast today, Bitcoin has just seen a sharp market correction that wiped out gains from the Trump era. So we've got to go there, really, at least reference that. So in moments like this, what does that volatility still reveal about Bitcoin and how it's being used today?

[00:02:33] - [Speaker 0]
And and where do you think its next phase of maturity will come from?

[00:02:38] - [Speaker 1]
Yes. It's an interesting times. Think, you know, in my mind, the Trump era is still very much alive. But, in terms of that that initial kind of upswing when everybody was quite bullish from from that earlier bullish sentiment, we've we've retraced. But we're also still following to an extent that traditional Bitcoin cycle in in some ways.

[00:02:58] - [Speaker 1]
I think, you know, the jury is out to some, until recently perhaps about whether that will persist or not. But while we're still seeing a drawdown, I think that the volatility is still lower than in previous cycles. The drawdown being, you know, 70% or or around that mark in in previous cycles. I'm I'm not sure we'll see that same kind of pull down again. And as the volatility of Bitcoin generally normalizes to some extent, I think that's a sign of maturity as an asset and and broadest broader global adopt adoption.

[00:03:29] - [Speaker 1]
But where it's different from previous times is that a lot of this capital is seeing inflows through traditional structures like an ETF or a DAT or something like that, as opposed to simply retail going onto an exchange, buying Bitcoin themselves, having that access to the underlying asset directly. And I think that's something that we're trying to solve for with threshold is how do people still, gain the utility of of owning Bitcoin? And when they have that, what what can they do with it? And it it I think owning the the underlying Bitcoin asset is a healthy thing for everybody, and I'm sure many of people in the space who have been there for a while would would agree. But now we're seeing these traditional markets, which also have a healthy impact on on normalizing price discovery, I think.

[00:04:13] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. So many great points there. You are incredibly bullish. I mean, you've argued that Bitcoin is still evolving from this passive store of value into programmable capital. So what has to change in infrastructure and indeed mindset of long term holders to to feel more comfortable putting BTC, to work on chain now?

[00:04:34] - [Speaker 0]
What what do you think needs to happen then?

[00:04:37] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I think, you know, the story around Bitcoin has always been one of self sovereignty and and decentralization. This idea of having money that is, free from, government control in terms of the monetary policy at any rate. So it's always had this quite libertarian ethos, cyberpunk ethos, which has been awesome. I think, you know, it's it's a cool, cool thing and it's something that drew me into the space, like this idea of of this kind of, technology first money, that's that's kind of agnostic of of government control, which I think is a healthy counterbalance to the way that we see that monetary policy governed and the widespread impacts we, can experience as a result of that.

[00:05:21] - [Speaker 1]
At the same time, that mentality has meant that people predominantly got into it to maybe, like, create a store of value and and keep their their Bitcoin much in the same way somebody might keep gold buried in the backyard as it were, and and Bitcoin's private key architecture does suit itself very well to that that kind of mentality. But at the same time, we have this large capital base that's largely sitting idle. It's not being utilized in in finance generally, and it's not necessarily having an impact on people's lives in a sense. Like, they have this Bitcoin sitting there. They can't really access it, and they're loath to sell the Bitcoin because they're very long term bullish.

[00:06:00] - [Speaker 1]
So what are the mechanisms that they can access that will allow them to access the capital base without having to sell their Bitcoin and without having to trust a a centralized institute institution? Institution. And that's effectively what threshold is developed to solve. And that we have a a custody mechanism where you still maintain complete ownership over your own keys. You're never trusting a centralized entity with those, keys.

[00:06:25] - [Speaker 1]
You can deposit Bitcoin into our system and receive a wrapped asset on chains called TBTC. And then because you have this one to one proxy for your Bitcoin on chain, you can use that as a collateral in these new emerging markets and quite well established markets at this point, new in the relative sense, such as Aave or or Compound or or Spark lending protocols. And you can borrow US dollars. You could borrow Ethereum against your Bitcoin, and that and that's a way of accessing some of the capital value of your Bitcoin without selling it. And I think while that, from a user perspective, may seem a bit advanced right now because you have to go on chain, you have to access this market, you have to manage your own collateral ratio and and these other elements.

[00:07:12] - [Speaker 1]
But that user layer, I think, is is building out and will become a lot smoother. And we'll also see integration into more of like a web two type experience for the broader market. But that's what I think fundamentally is changing is that people are seeing this as more of a normalized asset as part of a portfolio of assets, and they'll be able to use it in a way that that, is quite composable and and liquid, thanks to technologies like Threshold.

[00:07:41] - [Speaker 0]
And we will have many people listening and indeed watching. And when they hear about wrapped Bitcoin, they will still associate it with custodians and hidden risks, etcetera. So for people hearing about you guys for the first time, how does TBTC's trust minimized model? How does that actually differ in practice, and and why does that distinction matter so much when real capital is at stake here?

[00:08:06] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. It's it's an interesting question. And I think to not get too deep into the technical

[00:08:11] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:08:11] - [Speaker 1]
Definition of it all, but I I still like to outline it from a high level, is that with, another other wrapped Bitcoin assets out there, generally requires you to transfer your BTC into the custody of another entity where they have unilateral control to some extent, and it might expose you to bankruptcy risk or just platform risk of their security mechanism by doing so. Whereas with Threshold, we have primarily a decentralized custody system, which uses multi party computation threshold encryption to basically, create a Bitcoin multisig on the Bitcoin chain. And that multisig, it gets sharded between nodes in our network. It's a a 51 of a 100 multisig. So there are a 100 different keys that go into signing a transaction on that multisig, and they get distributed between nodes on our network.

[00:09:02] - [Speaker 1]
And those nodes, they are agnostic of each other. They they don't really know, besides that they they exist. They they're not able to collude with each other. So they can compose and sign transactions on behalf of the user to move money in and out of that Bitcoin multisig based on the actions that the user initiates. So that might be a mint action where they deposit Bitcoin and then they receive TBTC, then they go into DeFi and they use that TBTC to borrow BTC or or earn some yield.

[00:09:33] - [Speaker 1]
And then they've they've completed their activities with TBTC. They but they wanna return back to Bitcoin on maintenance, and then they can perform a redemption, action where they burn that TBTC and then they receive back the underlying BTC. So that custody mechanism is what has been fundamentally different about about threshold for for some time. But we're also moving towards, what we call bring your own custody, where there are other custody mechanisms out there, including what we have, that offer different, kind of risk profiles or user experiences or jurisdictional, preferences. And what we're looking to do is basically integrate those different custody types into the TVTC system as well.

[00:10:17] - [Speaker 1]
So you could have something that is formalized and structured like, a centralized custodian because that is something that is very appealing to the regulated end of town, like the ETFs or DATs or institutions. They're not actually that comfortable with using a decentralized system like Threshold. So what we're positioning ourselves for is this bring your own custody mechanism, which means that we can cater to that sophisticated end of town, which will bring much larger liquidity and and better depth and better, kind of asset performance on chain for general users, while still maintaining this permissionless and decentralized path through our decentralized custody system that I described before. So we'll still maintain that same user experience. And for those people that wanna own their own keys, they want to come and go without needing to trust a centralized entity, they're able to do that.

[00:11:11] - [Speaker 1]
And at the same time, for the sophisticated end of town, we're gonna have this custody mechanism that also allows them to bring their assets on chain and and grow the Bitcoin economy for every user.

[00:11:23] - [Speaker 0]
And one of the reasons I was excited to get you on today is I was reading that Threshold has processed tens of thousands of BTC across multiple chains. And you must have some rich experience here. So I'm curious. What what have been the biggest technical or even behavioral barriers to bringing Bitcoin liquidity into DeFi but at scale? Because you must have seen so much.

[00:11:44] - [Speaker 0]
I'm I'm curious what you've seen both good and bad here.

[00:11:48] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. It's been a really interesting time. I think 2025 and 2024, there was this kind of Bitcoin fi renaissance, and and and these new things were being tried, like a lot of l twos. There was the restaking initiatives, some of these kind of Bitcoin staking protocols as well that use Bitcoin as collateral to secure different protocols and things like that. And there was a big kind of farming bubble effectively, like people were using Bitcoin via some wrapper to to, to earn, early access to a token or something like that.

[00:12:24] - [Speaker 1]
And that is quite like a limited use case, but the initiative behind that is trying to find Bitcoin yield where you can earn Bitcoin with your Bitcoin, and it's all denominated in Bitcoin. And it's hard to do because, obviously, at the protocol level, Bitcoin doesn't have in built yield. It doesn't have staking like Ethereum, for example. So the mechanisms that are available either involve, some kind of financial risk in that you're, you're depositing your Bitcoin into a managed strategy. It might be providing liquidity.

[00:12:54] - [Speaker 1]
It might be a delta neutral strategy via a vault or some other managed strategy. Or you're staking your Bitcoin in a layer two protocol or a layer one protocol that is has some kind of token emissions. So you're earning the token emissions as your as your yield, or you're lending your Bitcoin or providing liquidity. So there are a few different mechanisms to earn more Bitcoin with your Bitcoin. But at the end of the day, because Bitcoin doesn't have native yield, these mechanisms, they run their own risk and they're a different risk profile to to BTC.

[00:13:28] - [Speaker 1]
So I think that is where we saw a lot of people trying to bring their Bitcoin into the DeFi space. And through that, it's being created quite a sophisticated space of Bitcoin strategy management, Bitcoin liquidity provision, and Bitcoin yield products. And that's another thing that Threshold's basically connecting the dots for is there's an on chain ecosystem of different things you can do with your Bitcoin. It might be borrowing against your Bitcoin if you want to finance your life. It might be borrowing against Bitcoin to run a delta neutral strategy on Bitcoin, for example, and own Bitcoin, in Bitcoin denominated yield.

[00:14:03] - [Speaker 1]
And, that's really what's emerging is is what I call the the Bitcoin economy, which are these suites of products and services and strategies that's can be accessed on chain, which has the benefit of the global liquidity pool of of DeFi, while at the same time, still maintaining those those Bitcoin first principles, being able to exit back to Bitcoin, being able to, maintain your own your own keys and and manage your own assets. So I I see this is being part of what's slowed adoption in a sense is that not only do people not really understand and and when I say people, mean, more the retail market, what kind of things are accessible to them. Of course, there's risk in managing all this, and and frankly, there are there are a lot of things that can go wrong if you're, not a sophisticated player in space, and we've seen that time and time again, unfortunately. So that kind of lack of fundamental motivation for people to move their Bitcoin because they say, sure, I could earn, you know, 5% yield, but, I'm expecting this asset to to go to a million dollars. Why would I introduce principal risk?

[00:15:13] - [Speaker 1]
So I think it's it's changing the mentality of only being long Bitcoin and saying, how can I access some of the value that is being created through the growth of Bitcoin without needing to sell or without taking on risk that I'm not comfortable with? And those are the mechanisms that I see are being built out more broadly. And that integration is happening vertically where we've begun in crypto as, you know, decentralized. Everybody comes in with their own keys, managing their own private keys, and and and doing that. But to get mass adoption of of crypto rails, I don't think that the world is going to have that paradigm shift personally.

[00:15:52] - [Speaker 1]
Like, I don't think that it'll come down to the end user to be responsible for their own key custody at mass scale. There will be web two type platforms that we already see that, will help you to custody your Bitcoin and onboard you, and and they'll give you a nice app. They'll manage the risk, and, they'll have some kind of fiduciary duty to the user, which is something that's not quite common in crypto right now. But beneath that tech stack, there will be the decentralized infrastructure such as Threshold, where they can access these crypto primitives, this liquidity, these products via that platform, but it's using decentralized rails. And that's better for everybody because the liquidity pool's better or or larger.

[00:16:36] - [Speaker 1]
The, the liquidity generally, I think, will will grow on chain faster in the long term than than traditional markets. And, the execution environment, the transparency, the risk, all of that is, I think, is better long term in crypto despite hacks and things short term kind of, indicating that there there are some, some significant reasons to to mitigate those risks from a user. So that's how I kinda see it building out towards mass adoption is there will be better interfaces that that manage user expectations, user experience. But underneath that, there'll be powerful rails, like threshold that lets Bitcoin enter the system, exit the system, and access all of these amazing opportunities that are being developed in DeFi, and that's what we're building for.

[00:17:29] - [Speaker 0]
And you mentioned l twos a moment ago, and Asia in particular has emerged as a focal point for Bitcoin innovation, particularly around l twos l twos and cross chain activity. So why do you think regions like Hong Kong, Singapore, etcetera, are moving so much faster than here in many western markets?

[00:17:50] - [Speaker 1]
Think it it could come down to to mindset Yeah. To some extent, where Bitcoin and Bitcoiners, as I was describing earlier, I think, originated with more of a libertarian mindset, this kind of self sovereign mindset, which I think is, is more American and more Western than than it is Asian, at least, from from my perspective of of the market. And, it could be that that small mentality. It could be regulatory differences. It it could be different approaches.

[00:18:25] - [Speaker 1]
And there are so many different regions and different regulatory environments. But I think I think without the kind of libertarian self sovereign, I wanna kinda keep my money, mindset, it's more practical. It's like, how can I make money with this asset class? And, I think that's, that's it is is probably one of the differences that, are motivating these these growth changes. And at the same time, I think there's a a global, expansion of Bitcoin use cases.

[00:18:56] - [Speaker 1]
The Bitcoin use cases in in America due to the regulatory environment, the the kind of, the current changes in regulation that are that are taking place are creating a much more friendly environment for businesses to to run using Bitcoin or owning assets. And I think this regulation is still catching up in some of the Eastern markets. And, that is is probably gonna change the behavior. So we've we've moved into this institutional phase for for Bitcoin, in the West anyway. And I think that's largely because of these changing regulations.

[00:19:30] - [Speaker 1]
And, And through that, we've seen, you know, the BlackRock ETF become one of the largest holders of or if not the largest holder of Bitcoin globally. And, that's kind of an epicenter of Bitcoin capital, at the moment. So this space has changed a lot from where we began, and, I think, you know, regulation is playing a big part of that at the moment.

[00:19:53] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Completely agree. And when I was doing a little research on you before you came in, onto the podcast today, I was reading how you've spoken in the past about decentralized bridges as almost invisible infrastructure that can underpin global liquidity. And I've got to ask, after failures like FTX, what kind of lessons should builders and regulators alike be taking about where trust actually belongs in crypto systems? What do you see here?

[00:20:24] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I mean, who could forget FTX and and that fiasco of mismanagement? And I think what that came down to was having unilateral control over the underlying assets. They could move assets. They could, you know they had to be honest, I don't know the nth degree of the details.

[00:20:43] - [Speaker 1]
But the fact that they could unilaterally move user assets and and use that to to execute their own strategies, I think that's that was one of the primary risks. So, obviously, with the decentralized mechanism that's, threshold custody's Bitcoin in at the moment. There's no unilateral control. No single entity in the world can access the underlying Bitcoin collateral unless you have the TBTC bearer instrument, which you have to either buy on the market or mint yourself. So in that case, there's no way for kind of re rehypothecation to take place at the protocol level.

[00:21:22] - [Speaker 1]
And then when I was talking about this bring your own custody piece as well, where you could have a regulated entity, a neo bank or or a federal bank in in The US, a federally regulated bank in The US. That custody mechanism and the management mechanism of the underlying Bitcoin is very well developed. It's not just deposit Bitcoin into account an account and and trust me, bro. It's Mhmm. Entering into a a a legal construct that's, is tried and tested in the industry with the right controls in place of the collateral underlying.

[00:21:59] - [Speaker 1]
So there's no unilateral control by anybody. And I think that and having the right policies in place around that custody and and collateral management is what can create a much more stable basis. And I and I think that the work that the the custodians have done to navigate the regulatory space and get to the point where they can be a crypto bank effectively, That's the, you know, triple a rating status that we would look for in in a custody and if they were going to join the custody model of threshold. Because our custody system, the way we've designed it is to avoid those kind of central points of failure. So it's impossible for something like FTX to happen, and we would need the other custodial mechanisms that were to be integrated into that to to meet the same kind of risk rating that we've set as the standard for TPTC.

[00:22:55] - [Speaker 0]
And at Threshold, you've moved from a DAO led governance to a lab led development model. And what prompted that shift? And and what do you think it says about decentralized projects and and the need to evolve once they move from experimentation to real world usage? Any is there a story behind that that slight pivot?

[00:23:15] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's been a really interesting case study, as you've said, around around the model generally. And I think it kinda comes down to the the approach that people have taken initially. Some some projects start centralized, then they're like progressive decentralization.

[00:23:31] - [Speaker 1]
And some projects start decentralized and then move towards centralization, not necessarily at the protocol level, but at the management level. And so I think there's this obstruction that takes place between core protocol governance, which is token holder based decentralized, and there's a the DAO mechanism, which still exists. Like, the threshold DAO still exists and and governs the protocol. And then there's TLABS, Threshold Labs, which, is the execution arm effectively. So we do the the day to day strategy, protocol development, and growth functions, and we operate based on a centralized decision structure.

[00:24:09] - [Speaker 1]
But the parameters that we operate within are defined by the DAO to some extent. The DAO doesn't have input on our kind of executive decisions in terms of strategy and product and and growth, But, they do manage, you know, contracts, upgrades, or changes to the system if they were to take place, additions to the system or, the the financial management of the protocol at large. So Threshold Labs is is basically contracted to the DAO to perform these services, but the DAO can terminate these services as its own independent entity because their intention and focus is on, the security of Threshold network, the the long term growth. Of course, that's the same for Threshold Labs, but they're a layer removed where they control, you know, the the assets of of the protocol at large in a decentralized way. And we need to basically have alignment to that in order to to function.

[00:25:07] - [Speaker 1]
So I think that obstruction of of governance and execution is a model that we're seeing and have seen work very well across crypto in many ways. Like, there are a lot of labs companies that's work on a decentralized protocol, but they they have centralized execution. And I think the reason for that is that it's just really hard to make a decision to align on a core strategy when there are so many people with input and it has to be done in the open. It has to, require cycles of iteration and and input, and you just move a lot slower. And I think that the the results in terms of a product strategy or a growth strategy may not have the same level of market intel that you can achieve by having centralized execution.

[00:25:56] - [Speaker 1]
So I think we've moved to that model and we've seen great results in terms of us moving a lot faster than we've ever been able to do as as a DAO and, still maintaining all the security benefits of having decentralized governance and and token holder governance. So I'd see it as the best of both worlds. And, yeah, I'm pretty happy with what we've been able to build so far at T Labs.

[00:26:20] - [Speaker 0]
Incredibly cool. If I was to ask you to take a look in a virtual crystal ball, look five five years ahead, if if Bitcoin truly become productive on chain capital, etcetera, what what does success look like to you? What risk could still derail that vision if the industry got the design choices wrong? And and, ultimately, what is that that five year picture? What what does that look like?

[00:26:45] - [Speaker 0]
And I realize that is insane to say in this day and age where five years is like a lifetime with how quickly things are moving right now. But how do you see this evolving?

[00:26:56] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I five years is an age without a doubt. Like, look at them. Much has happened in the last five years. I I can barely fathom the whole creation of of DeFi effectively or the establishment.

[00:27:11] - [Speaker 1]
So in five years, like, what success would look like for for us or for the industry at large? For for threshold, it would certainly be the majority of Bitcoin financial transactions taking place on chain. I think that it's just a better execution environment for finance because you have a lot of transparency, you have provability, you have instant settlements, you have, lower, risk of the underlying collateral in many ways, and you can set up better mechanisms of decision making. So I think the trend ideally will be on chain for for some of those reasons, and that threshold manages to capture a significant portion of of the capital base coming in through our rails. And we continue to build out better and better use cases, deeper integrations, and also the vertical integration into into distribution partners.

[00:28:09] - [Speaker 1]
And for the industry at large, I think five years in the future, there will likely be a consolidation to some extent of of the major networks. I think we're seeing this already play out with most of the institutional interest being Ethereum and and some of the more established, networks. There'll likely be a number of other successful niche projects as well within that that either have specific use cases or specific access or distribution that gives them an an edge. But I think in terms of execution, people will be looking for the the most secure and trustworthy environment. And and frankly, I think Ethereum is that thought for the fact that it hasn't, it hasn't ever had a a chain stoppage, since its inception, which I think that continuity is really important.

[00:29:03] - [Speaker 1]
And I really hope that Bitcoin as an asset does reach that that level of of, of global recognition. I think it's getting there at this stage, but we still see correlation between, you know, the S and P 500 and these other kind of macro pieces, which is not my my expertise. But I would love to see Bitcoin treated in its own right as a as a a capital asset with its own decoupling and really prove that, store value thesis. And hopefully, the Bitcoin price normalizes to some extent within a kind of a range and hopefully higher than where we are now. But, just that's that it reaches this point of stability where people can start to make, life decisions based on it.

[00:29:53] - [Speaker 1]
Like, for example, if if you were to go into your financial life with with Bitcoin, you could borrow against it. And to borrow against it, you need to put up a certain amount of collateral on chain at any rate. And, you can only draw down a certain ratio of that collateral as debt. So in that case where the Bitcoin price is volatile very volatile, it's hard to have, you know, a tight range on that. But if if there is kind of normalization to some extent, and maybe five years is is not enough time, maybe it's it's twenty years, and there's still this upward price discovery.

[00:30:25] - [Speaker 1]
So, you know, the the bullish case in five years is Bitcoin's 10 x and it's and it's stable around there. People are using it. It's all being done on chain. We've eliminated a lot of the counterparty risk in the system and have very established and stable onboarding and off offboarding mechanisms of BTC. And the utility is just growing into this very diverse ecosystem of of companies and businesses operating on the same shared financial rails with shared efficiency, but offering value and services to each other using Bitcoin, using using USD on chain, but having this kind of integrated economy.

[00:30:59] - [Speaker 1]
So, yeah, that would be really cool.

[00:31:01] - [Speaker 0]
Exciting times ahead. And, of course, one thing that will make all this possible is the power of community, and the crypto community is incredibly passionate there. And anyone listening wanna find out more about anything we talked about today, learn more about threshold, join your community and some of those conversations that they're having. Where's the, the best place to point everyone to them?

[00:31:25] - [Speaker 1]
Probably the the best entry point is just our our Twitter account, our x account, which is the t network. And that's where we share all of our updates. You can get a link to our our website. You can check it out. Our threshold.network is our website.

[00:31:39] - [Speaker 1]
That's, has every detail that you need about the project, our documentation, a bit about our history, our links to our community channels, like our Discord and things like that. But check out the app. I think the the best way to get onboarded to the community is to understand what the product does and why it exists and just try using it for for yourself. Like, try bringing some Bitcoin into the DeFi ecosystem, see what you can do with it, and, go back out into Bitcoin and and understand how this this capital flow exists and, what the potential therein lies. So, yeah, join us on on Twitter, join us on Discord, and play with the the product, and and let us know what you think.

[00:32:20] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Completely agree with you. I say that with everything, whether it would be AI, crypto, or any emerging technology. The best way is read about it, learn about it, and get hands on with it, play with it, and see how it works and what use and what value it can deliver. So I would urge anyone listening to check that out.

[00:32:37] - [Speaker 0]
I will add links in the show notes as always. But more than anything, just thank you for taking the time to sit down with me today and talk about all this very complex technology, but in a language that anyone can understand. So thank you so much.

[00:32:51] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. It's been a pleasure, Neil. Thanks for having me on the show.

[00:32:53] - [Speaker 0]
So we covered everything from volatility and maturity to trust models, decentralized custody, and what it really takes to unlock Bitcoin liquidity at scale. And yet there were some honest reflections there on risk and regulation and why infrastructure choices matter long after the hype fades. And this wasn't a story about just chasing yield for its own sake, but about building systems people can rely on when real money is involved. And as Bitcoin continues to move from speculation to toward utility, how comfortable are you in putting it to work rather than leaving it on the sidelines? Let me know your thoughts as always.

[00:33:39] - [Speaker 0]
Techtalksnetwork.com. There's loads of ways of getting hold of me over there. But other than that, I've taken up far too much of your time today. So I'll return again tomorrow with another guest. Bye for now.