How Gensler Is Designing Data Centers For A Faster AI Future

[00:00:04] Welcome back to another episode of the Tech Talks Daily Podcast. Now, when we continuously talk about AI, cloud and digital transformation, I think it's a fair comment that we seldom stop to think about the physical spaces that make it all possible. Because behind every breakthrough model, every real-time insight and every always-on service

[00:00:30] is a building that is designed to carry extraordinary loads. Not only that, it's expected to adapt at speed and stand the test of time. So my guest today is from a company called Gensler. And together, we're going to explore what it takes to design data centers in an era where GPU densities are surging, power demands are accelerating,

[00:00:56] and sustainability expectations are all rising just as fast too. So from flexibility and modular design to embodied carbon and grid realities, today's conversation will be about the built environment that's quietly shaping our digital future. So I invite you to geek out with me today. If you care about where AI actually lives and how we build responsibly for what comes next,

[00:01:24] you're going to want to lean into this one with me. But enough scene setting for me. It's time for me to officially introduce you to my guest now. So thank you for joining me on the podcast today. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do? Sure. I'm Martin Reynolds. I'm an architect and a principal at the architecture firm Gensler. I'm based out of Chicago.

[00:01:52] And over the last 20 years of working at Gensler, I've specialized in what we call critical facilities, which mainly is data centers, but there's a few other kind of adjacent project areas too. Usually it's anything that requires like a high degree of redundancy and resiliency. So command centers, control centers, supercomputing facilities, and other high-tech kind of projects,

[00:02:21] often for things like labs, universities, Department of Energy, federal government, et cetera. But data centers is kind of the theme. Well, there's so much I want to talk with you about today, especially tap into your history, your career, your insights, and what you've seen. Because as someone that spent nearly two decades designing large-scale data centers at Gensler, how have you seen the shift from traditional cloud loads of around, I don't know, 15 kilowatts per hour per cabinet

[00:02:51] to AI workloads pushing 120 and even much, much higher? How has that changed the way that you think about building, especially with cooling and infrastructure, et cetera, from day one? Because it feels like the conversation has changed so much in the last few years. But what have you seen here? Well, when you start with saying over the last two decades, I mean, we can kind of walk back even a little further than that. Because the changes that you're describing there

[00:03:19] are what we've been seeing over the last couple of years. If we kind of go back to the beginning of my career around 2006, we were doing underfloor air delivery, meaning raised access floor. Rooms were colder, like 55 or so degree air is the cold air that they were using at the time. And the loads were quite small. We used to talk in terms of watts per square foot.

[00:03:48] And today, most people talk in terms of kilowatts per cabinet. So that was kind of what everyone was building back in the early 2000s, was just raised floor, low density, 120 watts a square foot was considered pretty modern and contemporary back then. And now, a non-AI or GPU kind of cabinet, you're probably planning between 8 and 15 kilowatts a cabinet.

[00:04:18] So significantly hotter in terms of how that facility is going to run. And hotter in more ways than one. The other is that over time, as technologies have advanced, they've increased the cooling temperature. And so now, you know, it's pretty common that cold air is 85 degrees. So the rooms run a lot hotter. And this boosts the efficiency of the projects quite a lot.

[00:04:43] The change you're talking about really is when we get into GPUs. And they're not 100% synonymous with AI, although that's kind of the big thing that everyone thinks of when they think of GPUs.

[00:05:03] So those, we're seeing, you know, planning around densities that are higher than 120 kilowatts a cabinet. The chip technology itself advances so quickly. And admittedly, I'm not some expert on computer chips or anything like that. So I can kind of only tell you a little bit anecdotally about that because I'm just an architect. We design buildings.

[00:05:32] You know, so we're planning around these densities. And the time to build a building versus how quickly the chips are advancing. You know, you might be two or three generations further down the road in chip technology by the time a large-scale data center can be constructed, can be designed and constructed. So the way I've been kind of describing it over the last year or so,

[00:06:00] everyone asks, you know, how do you design projects when you don't know what the technology that's going to go into it? Is going to be looking like. I pretty much said you don't want to design a building that's overly efficient because an extremely efficient building is inherently going to be inflexible over time. So you want to have a building that's got a little bit of fluff in terms of its size

[00:06:28] so that when you are planning for knowing that not only will the technology we're designing for today probably be different by the time the building comes online, you want to also be planning for the fact that these facilities refresh. It might be 18 months, might be 36 months, might be a little longer than that, but they refresh their technology. And so, you know, trying to make a Swiss watch out of this thing is not always the smartest approach.

[00:07:00] And it's interesting you say this because I think we're in an age of instant gratification now and many businesses will take tech for granted and think it's as simple as just picking up the phone and saying, hey, IT, make this happen on this day. But as you said, data centers take two and a half to three years to design and build. And yet GPU and chip roadmaps are moving in six-month cycles. So how do you design a facility today that will still be relevant

[00:07:28] when the underlying technology has changed several times before it even opens? Well, I think it gets back to the idea of designing for flexibility. You want to design something that has sort of this ability to plug and play its technology, which means, you know, not just the computing technology, but also the mechanical and electrical technology. Normally, those are systems that have admittedly a lot longer lives,

[00:07:56] at least the sort of more traditional ones. I think they would typically run on about 20-year lifespans. So you're not swapping those out every, you know, three years or so, but they still can be swapped out, especially as the need goes from something like the cloud computing density, as we talked about, which for the most part are going to be air-cooled versus GPUs, which are going to be liquid-cooled.

[00:08:23] And so there is often a need to be able to swap out a mechanical system. If, let's say, you're a developer, you know, looking to lease your data center space, you might need a data center that, well, in fact, you probably do, you need a data center that the galleries that house all your mechanical equipment is designed to be plug and play with either fan wall units, which are large air handlers, or CDUs, which are the cooling distribution units, which distribute chilled water.

[00:08:53] So you'd want to be able to have that be flexible so that if one tenant wants GPU compute and the other wants cloud compute, you can put either technology in the space. And before you join me on the podcast, I was doing a little research on you. And as well as the hyper-flexibility that you mentioned, I've also read that you talk about applying a Lego or Erectoset mindset to mission-critical buildings.

[00:09:18] So what does that look like in a practical architectural and engineering term inside some of these multi-billion dollar facilities that we're talking about? Well, it's the idea of, you know, we want to design around consistent and scalable form factors. And so when you're designing a data center, you know, and I'm usually thinking in terms of the,

[00:09:47] they're called co-location providers. You know, it's also developer would be a good term for it. Um, co-location is where someone builds a data center and it's either going to be leased out or sold, um, to another group, probably a big tech company. And, um, you know, when we're designing for co-location providers, we're developers.

[00:10:13] We, we typically look to design around a specific module, you know, so you pick, you pick a module for your data center size. Um, you know, it's, it's going to be like a multiple of two or a multiple of three typically. So you might say we're going to design eight megawatt or 12 megawatt or 24 megawatt data halls. And you're looking to pair that up with electrical systems that use something that is a multiple of that,

[00:10:43] that same number. So you might be going with three megawatt UPS rooms or four megawatt UPS rooms, uh, or electrical blocks, whatever we want to call them. So you're, you're looking to create these, these scalable form factors that allow you to plan facilities to be multiple different sizes for different campuses. Um, for in a lot of cases, availability of power, because it might be an infill site in a suburban area where someone's got a plot of land of,

[00:11:12] I don't know, 10 acres and says, I can get 20 megawatts today. I want to build something on here. That's actually pretty desirable when power is in short supply. And of course we're talking around the increased compute at, uh, AI demands. It also sometimes contradicts the, the world of corporate ESG scores that we see everywhere now. So from, from an embodied carbon perspective, how do things like durable structures, larger bays,

[00:11:41] taller Florida, uh, floor heights and heavier floor loading, how do these create that longer term sustainability challenges compared to maybe the short term solutions like temporary structures, et cetera, because this is also something that's top of mind too, right? And I would imagine it's somewhat of a tricky balance sometimes. Yeah, that's a, that's a great point. Embodied carbon, you know, we, we think of, for, for anyone who's not familiar, you know, we think of embodied carbon and operational carbon, um,

[00:12:11] embodied carbon is, you know, all the carbon that goes into producing a building. Um, I've, I've been saying for a handful of years now that, you know, I, I think that one of the things that matters when we think about data centers, when we think about the built environment is quality buildings, there tends to be, you know, if, if you think about it, not in terms of the mass, the physical weight of the building,

[00:12:40] but the mass more philosophically, a building built out of high quality materials, um, with, you know, you know, good, good envelopes, things like that. Um, you know, think of, you know, a lot of data centers are built out of like insulated precast wall panels, um, as opposed to something like lightweight insulated metal wall panel and things like that. Um, building out of high quality materials,

[00:13:05] there tends to be a bit of mass or momentum for a building to survive, uh, and not just be viewed as disposable. So I think when you build out a better quality, long lasting materials, there's going to be a greater likelihood that people are going to see that and say, we should probably look at how we can repurpose this building when it's reached the end of whatever the current usable purpose is. If it was a data center, someone might see it and say, you know, there's, there's something else we could do with this building.

[00:13:35] Maybe we can convert it to, you know, advanced manufacturing or something. And no, a lot of times that wouldn't be the use case. It would probably be the inverse of that where you'd take a former manufacturing building and convert it to a data center. Um, but I think the concept is still there. You know, if you build high quality, it's more likely to last. And, um, the, the saying in the, the world of sustainability is that the most sustainable building is the one that already exists.

[00:14:04] So not tearing down structures is a good thing. Um, you know, we, I was having a conversation with one of my partners here in Chicago about, uh, suburban office building campus in the, the greater Chicago market. And, um, there were discussions of it being torn down and, um, converted for data center use.

[00:14:29] And he and I were talking and he asked if the existing office campus could just be converted to a data center rather than being torn down. And, you know, I kind of paused and said, well, that probably wouldn't work too well. Cause you know, class a developer office buildings are going to be somewhere in like the 14 to 15 foot floor to floor. That's a little low for a data center. You're going to want 25, maybe even as high as 30 feet. And while saying that, it kind of clicked in my head. Well,

[00:14:59] if these are four story buildings and they've got a 15 foot floor to floor, if you removed every other floor, you'd have a 30 foot floor to floor and your columns would, your columns and foundations would already have the capacity because it was a four story building going to a two story building. You could probably do this. Um, and I think that that's the approach that a lot of people need to start taking whether they're on the client side, you know, as a developer or a tech firm, you know,

[00:15:27] and on the architecture and engineering side is to kind of look for those possibilities that, you know, yeah, in a, in a simplistic way, tearing a building down, scraping a lot, building a brand new one, purpose built exactly the way you want it. It's easy. Um, but there's pretty good innovative approaches to building reuse. Uh, particularly when you're looking at really large format projects, like a lot of the,

[00:15:56] the contemporary data center campuses, especially for AI and, you know, the current version of cloud computing, which just keeps getting bigger as well. Um, I think that there's a lot of opportunities for building reuse. And one of the reasons I want to talk about this, although I am 4,000 miles away from you in Chicago right now, we're over here. I'm hearing a lot about the U S grid might need an additional hundred gigawatts to support some of the advanced AI ambitions of big enterprises. So in the near term,

[00:16:26] many operators are leaning towards onsite natural gas generation, but overall, how should the generation be balancing that speed to power with long-term environmental responsibility? You've explained a lot there, but anything else that you would add to that? Sure. As someone who believes in sustainable design and, you know, I probably could call myself an environmentalist. Um, I have sort of, uh,

[00:16:56] how do you want to, how do you want to phrase this? I have sort of a, uh, uh, a philosophical struggle with what we need to achieve in terms of, um, what they call artificial general intelligence or AGI, uh, and its need for power, uh, because to, to get that, let's round it off to a hundred gigawatts of additional, uh, power generation for the grid in the United States. Um,

[00:17:24] we're not talking about, everyone talks about small nuclear reactors. They've got these small modular reactors, and that seems to be one of the hottest things in discussion for how to solve some of the challenges of generating power as well as distributing power. Um, and the small modular reactors can get bigger than I think we give them credit for being. I think a lot of times we picture them in like the one megawatt, two megawatt, five megawatt size,

[00:17:52] which when you're talking about a gigawatt or half a gigawatt AI campus, that's probably not a usable form of power, but they, they can get bigger. The issue is that when we're talking that hundred gigawatt size, uh, I don't think a lot of people know this Illinois where Chicago is located. Illinois is the, the biggest nuclear state in the United States. I think we've got like 13 nuclear power plants. We're, we're ahead of everybody in terms of how much nuclear power we produce.

[00:18:23] Um, one of the big ones near us that serves the greater Chicagoland area, I think it's like five gigawatts and you think, okay, that's, that's pretty impressive. But then you start to think like one data center campus could consume a gigawatt of power. So how many, how many full size nuclear power plants would we have to produce to be able to produce clean with an asterisk? Cause I, I think we could debate whether nuclear is clean. It's clean generation,

[00:18:52] but I don't know that the, you can really call the by-product clean. Um, that's why natural gas has become such a hot topic right now. Is that it's possible to get natural gas generation, uh, meaning onsite power, whether it is through turbines or generators. Um, it's possible to do that in a much faster timeframe than it takes to build a full size nuclear power plant. Um,

[00:19:22] and I have a problem with it because we're dealing with a fossil fuel nuclear, by the way, is a fossil fuel too. Um, but you know, we're dealing with a fossil fuel that had, that does have a direct carbon output. I know it's cleaner than some other, uh, you know, fuel sources that we still use, but, um, you know, I, I struggle with that. Now, here's where the philosophical part comes in. I think it's more important that we get to AGI, uh,

[00:19:49] as quickly as possible because it is a race and there are different countries that have different agendas. And, um, I think it is important, uh, that the United States gets there first. I mean, there's, there's geopolitical reasons why I think that there's value to us getting there. Um, and I also believe optimistically that artificial general intelligence will unlock certain things from a science standpoint,

[00:20:19] uh, you know, in science being all encompassing that can help us address climate change, address clean energy, you know, along with all the other great things for humankind that we expect it to bring, you know, cures for cancer, all those kinds of things. Um, I think that the short term carbon output to get something that can actually solve climate change is more important. And as you said that, right,

[00:20:49] where do you begin to advise clients who are making these billion dollar decisions about, um, which are basically on certain energy roadmaps, but obviously small modular reactors, they're positioned as, as the future of clean, reliable power for data centers. But realistically, they are years away. So when it comes to advising enterprises, where do you begin here? Well, in terms of power, um, you know, the,

[00:21:14] the onsite power generation discussion has been around for a while. We've done in smaller form factors, we've done things like, uh, fuel cells and, and other types and all other, you know, onsite natural gas cogeneration. Um, we've, we've done that for a handful of different projects, usually on a smaller scale. It's only recently that we've started to do it on a, you know, a large scale data center campus size. Um,

[00:21:46] it's still pretty new. There's a lot, there's a lot of discussion around it. Um, the, there needs to be some, some alignment. One, if you're going to do something like this, you need to have access to a significant amount of natural gas. Um, so not every site is going to be exactly suited for this. Um, we would probably not be involved early discussing whether a client is going to do onsite.

[00:22:12] It would probably be more once they've decided that they want independent from the grid power generation, um, to assist them with things like site selection and, you know, maybe, maybe a little bit of the technology. Some of that gets very engineering, um, so we'd probably be on the periphery of those conversations of whether they're going to use turbines or whether they're going to use generators. But, you know, we'd probably be in the discussion at least.

[00:22:42] And obviously we've spoken about repositioning underutilized buildings in central business districts for data center uses, but what are the hidden opportunities and maybe even constraints when converting those stranded real estate into high performance digital infrastructure? Cause it sounds like a bit of a no brainer, but any constraints or any problems around that as well? Yeah, there are. you know, I think we, first off, um,

[00:23:11] I want to just kind of point out that the, the data center market is so heavily skewed toward greenfield or new construction data centers. When we talk repositioning, I mean, we've been, and I'm not just talking Gensler, I'm, I'm talking the, the market of data center architects and engineers. Um, we've been doing repositioning like since the entire, the entirety, at least of my career, which means probably since the beginning of data centers, which, you know, predates me by,

[00:23:41] you know, maybe a decade or so from the modern data center. At least, um, we've, we've definitely been doing repositioning for my entire career. Uh, it is a niche market. Um, there are more opportunities and more discussion of the opportunities today. And this kind of goes back to, um, the, let's just call it the COVID and post COVID era as central business districts.

[00:24:11] I'm in Chicago, so I'm going to refer to the loop, which is our central business district here. Um, you know, the loop has seen, you know, significant vacancies. I think it was running around 25 or 26% vacancy, uh, for a period. Um, and this led to a lot of different discussions in the commercial real estate and the architecture markets. Um, one of the things, and, you know, Gensler was pretty big in this.

[00:24:39] We were talking about this idea of office to residential. Um, and I was speaking, with one of, one of our colleagues and he was kind of explaining to me, the, the thing with office to residential is it's great, but it may be only addresses 6% of that problem. So we've still got another nine, you know, out of 25% vacancy, this deals with 6%, we still got 19% vacancy we have to deal with.

[00:25:08] So we need to look at other possible conversions, uh, from office space. And that's where, in a lot of cases, data centers kind of comes in because it's one, it's a strong growing, reasonably stable. And I say reasonably stable as in, I don't think it's going to shrink. It's reasonably stable as in, it's hard to predict the growth. Um, we know that the growth is trending upward. Um, but what that's going to look like year over year is hard to,

[00:25:38] hard to fathom because sometimes it just spikes. Um, you know, when we look at converting office buildings for data centers, there are a lot that are going to be suitable, but it's going to be the same as that office to residential where there's a lot of vacancy in major downtowns. Not every, not every building, not every site's going to be suitable for it. Um, you know, a lot of conversions over time have been things such as former industrial buildings, uh,

[00:26:07] from the early parts of the 20th century or the first half of the 20th century, things like bakeries, printing facilities, other heavy manufacturing, manufacturing. Those tend to be great. Um, they, they have strong structures, good sized floor of floors and column bays. Um, so they're, they're great old buildings that can have a wonderful second life. Um, the ones we think of more in the central business districts, you'll find,

[00:26:35] you'll find quite a lot of, of interesting ones that, you know, what makes them suitable is they have kind of the, the backbone or foundation that's needed for a data center. It might've been a trading floor. You know, we have a lot of different exchanges in a city like Chicago. Um, you know, we've got the board of trade. We have the, the Chicago mercantile exchange. We have, um, the Chicago board of options exchange.

[00:27:04] There's a lot of different things like that. And there's a lot of buildings that surround that kind of cluster in the financial district that would have been trading companies that would have been banks. Um, and they had buildings that had great connectivity, redundant electrical systems and, and backup power. Uh, you know, so you've, you've got buildings that are already pretty well suited and have many of the pieces necessary to convert to data centers.

[00:27:35] Um, and then, you know, it, it, I'd be sort of remiss to not mention the suburbs because there are quite a few, I'm trying to think of the right term for what this real estate is. Um, there's a lot of different properties with vacancy issues in the suburbs. And that, that in a lot of cases is, I, in,

[00:28:03] in my sort of slightly limited understanding of how everything in real estate works. Um, I'd say it's sort of two things that caused that precocted, COVID or pre pandemic, there was this big push, at least in a lot of us markets to return to the city. You know, you, you think of before the two thousands, there was this sort of exodus, uh, that started in the mid 20th century.

[00:28:32] There was this exodus to the suburbs. People built these giant corporate campuses. Um, you know, and in the two thousands, there was this desire to return to the, the, the actual city. Uh, and so we saw lots of major campuses get abandoned essentially, because you can't just lease out, you know, a 5,000 person headquarters campus. This is purpose built for one company. It doesn't really parcel out to multi tenant super well.

[00:29:01] So you had a lot of these major campuses just sort of go vacant. Um, you'd also have a lot of other buildings that would, you know, through the pandemic, remote work actually took off. Um, and so now you have these huge facilities in the big, in the big suburban areas of a major city, uh, that they, they cannot lease these things. Um, and as a result, you know,

[00:29:31] those are really interesting properties for data centers. Um, you know, the, the issue of course being a lot of those buildings are built in reasonably upscale suburbs. And that's probably where you're going to see the greatest pushback. Um, you know, although not being the mayor of a suburb or anything like that myself, I would think that when you lose,

[00:30:01] you lose that type of office, uh, in your suburb, you've been hit so, so hard with your tax base and, and other, other sort of financial incentives for a city or village to operate, that there's something very appealing about replacing that with, uh, very large scale development like data centers. And I, I think that that's one of the reasons that we've seen many of our big suburbs in

[00:30:28] the Chicago area embrace development of data centers. And, um, I think some really do it quite well. And I think some of them really understand that this is, that this is an asset. Um, it does have value beyond just, you know, taxes and things like that, or, or utility bills. Like this is, this is actually something that attracts talent to an area and brings in other types of businesses that want to be around, um,

[00:30:58] you know, this type of high tech computing. If we were to dare to look into the future, and I appreciate that the rate of technological change in the last two to three years makes it almost impossible to predict the future. But if you did look into a virtual crystal ball, let's say five, 10 years ahead, what do you think will define a successful data center campus? Is it raw megawatts, adaptability, carbon intensity, location strategy, or something else entirely that might emerge that we're,

[00:31:27] we're not fully appreciating. How do you see all this evolving? Well, I really liked that question. Um, and I, I, I want to answer it in two completely opposing ways. I want to tell you what I, what I would like to see, but I don't actually think is going to happen. Um, you know, I, I would like to see an environment where we could build, uh, data centers that were more integrated into the environment. Uh, I say the environment,

[00:31:57] you know, meaning like the urban environment, whether it's a city or a suburb or, uh, a far flung, um, rural area. I'd, I'd like to see them built in, in a way that, you know, if we look at, first off, we kind of look at like the sort of pillars of industry and everything from the 20th century and everything. Um,

[00:32:23] even factories back then were built with some panache to them. You know, they, they were built, they were built to, to reflect the ideas of their founders and, you know, to be stately in a way. Um, and this is, this is the, you know, the economy of the 21st century, the, the, the information economy as opposed to the manufacturing one. And I,

[00:32:50] I would like to see a similar level of pride. If you want to call it that, um, you know, for, for what's going on inside those buildings. Um, I'd like to see them be more integrated into communities. I'd like to see there be a greater degree of, of kind of mixed use and, you know, um, not be quite so closed off. Now, the reality that that's not exactly going to,

[00:33:20] um, you know, there, I, I think we look at these, you know, these data centers as, you know, well, it's just housing a bunch of computers. It's of critical national security concern. You know, it's, it's, it's an unfortunate reality that the more reliant we as a society get on computing, which I mean, we're, we're entirely reliant on it right now. Um,

[00:33:50] it's, I say it's of national security concern. I think anyone can kind of fill in the blanks there and figure out what I'm talking about. Yeah. Our financial markets run on this, our business, you know, our entire business systems run on this, uh, our day-to-day lives for, you know, our family and friends, our cars, everything is tied to this. Um, I don't think we're going to see them be as sort of open and friendly as I'd like to,

[00:34:19] as I'd like to believe they could be because it's only going to become even more critical over time. Um, that being said, I think we, I think we, as a group of architects, engineers, contractors, clients, um, I, I don't think that that means we should ignore how these buildings are a participant in communities. You know, when there's billions and billions of dollars at stake for these campuses, um,

[00:34:48] I think that there's responsibility that comes with that to, to design quality products and have them, have them be something that is an asset for a community. Wow. And I think that is an incredibly powerful moment to end on so much, uh, to talk about after this conversation, anyone that wants to carry that on, where can they find out more information about anything we talk about? about today, whether it be Gensler yourself or, or just keeping up to speed with some of the,

[00:35:18] uh, announcements in that space. Anyway, in particular, you'd like to point everywhere. Sure. Sure. Uh, you can find us at, uh, our website, Gensler.com G E N S L E R. Um, and, uh, you can see the various practices, critical facilities happens to be one of about 33 that we have at the firm. And then you can click on the expertise tab and find out all, all about critical facilities and any of the other, uh, markets that,

[00:35:47] that we serve as an architecture firm. Well, I will add links to everything there. And I would urge everybody listening to follow your lead and get in touch, keep this conversation going. Your passion and for everything we're talking about here for sustainable design is clearly evident and really shines through in our conversation today, but more than anything, just thank you for taking the time to sit down with me, share your insights on the evolving landscape of, uh, sustainable data center design. As you said, it is critical,

[00:36:16] but thank you for shining a light on this today. Yeah. Thank you. Wow. So many big takeaways from that conversation now. And I think that balance between speed and longevity and innovation and responsibility, performance and adaptability is incredibly complex. And designing for a future that refuses to stand still requires so much more than just technical precision. It demands foresight, flexibility,

[00:36:44] and a willingness to challenge conventional thinking. So as AI ambitions scale and energy debates intensify, I think the real question becomes less about, Hey, how fast can we build and more about how wisely we choose to do just that. So if today's episode sparked any ideas for you, I encourage you to continue the conversation with the team at Gensler and also together,

[00:37:09] let's reflect on how the spaces we design today will shape the technologies and the communities of tomorrow. And as for myself, techtalksnetwork.com, you'll find out where you can catch me on the road, go to the event section. There's a lot of events coming up. It'd be great to meet you in person. If you're attending, give me a shout. If not, you just want to send me a message, send me a DM, send me an audio message, and we will have a little chat there. But that is it for today. So thank you to my guest and thank you to each and every one of you,

[00:37:39] for listening today. Speak to you soon. Bye for now.