Why AI Transformation Needs Wisdom as Well as Technology

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[00:00:27] Can ancient Greek philosophy really help a business make better decisions with their digital transformation? Well, my guest today believes it can. And he's going to make a persuasive case that some of the newest technology problems are rooted in questions humans have been debating for thousands of years. And my guest today is the author of a book called Digital Wisdom,

[00:00:57] Leading Transformation with the Sophia Factor. And today we're going to discuss why technical expertise can tell us whether something can be built, while wisdom asks, why should it be built? And who will it serve? Yeah, we're going to bring ancient thinking philosophers into AI governance, employee anxiety and investment decisions. So if your transformation plan contains plenty of tools,

[00:01:24] but lacking clear purpose, this conversation might just prompt a rather useful pause before your next budget meeting. But enough from me, let me introduce you to him now. Thank you for joining me on the show today. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do? Well, thank you so much for having me today. So my name is Alfonso Asensio. I'm based out of Tokyo,

[00:01:51] and I work in the data and the digital space. I have business roles with, you know, large Japanese consumer product goods, Silicon Valley-based technology companies. At the moment, I'm the head of data measurement for global clients for Google here in Tokyo. I've always been very interested in kind of going beyond the technology aspect of this transformation that we are living at the moment,

[00:02:20] right? We are in the midst of, you know, AI digitalization and all of that. So I recently wrote a book called Digital Wisdom, Living Transformation with the Sophia Factor, which just basically uses classical Greek philosophy principles to try and make sense of, you know, technology and AI developments. And that is one of the many things that put you on my radar. You set off my text by the sensors on

[00:02:47] your book title alone, Digital Wisdom. And I think it is so needed in this time where everyone's trying to learn and so many different tools and keep up with the pace of technological change as well. And your book in particular argues that digital transformation requires wisdom as well as technology. So you're speaking my language here, but what does wisdom add to the strategy? The data and technical expertise do not.

[00:03:16] So I think we live in a empirical age, right? So wisdom in our age, I think it just means knowledge, knowledge, but it's knowledge that is problem solving, it's knowledge that is domain specific. What it does not provide, it's a frame to understand reality and our place on it. So in classical Greece,

[00:03:41] wisdom was called Sophia, right? And it was a personification of knowledge, but it was knowledge, but it also included other areas, right? It was sound judgment, it was practical intelligence. So it had a wider coverage than what we understand as wisdom, what we understand as knowledge nowadays. So just to kind of give you a little example, one of the companies that I used to work with was a

[00:04:08] major data player, particularly in the 2010s when at the time of all those data-driven revolution and all this transformation. And our chief data officer, a very impressive lady, she used to say, just because we can do it, does not mean we should do it. Right? And that kind of stood with me. And I think that reflects very well the difference between knowledge or data and wisdom. I think

[00:04:35] technical expertise tell us if something can be built, but wisdom asks us why, right? So I think with wisdom or Sophia, I think you add the human context, you add ethical considerations, and very importantly, you add that long-term vision, right? So same as you, Neil, I'm sure we have seen

[00:05:01] plenty of companies, they jump into deploying a digital transformation, but they kind of do it mechanically, right? They kind of go through this process, they end up alineating either their consumers or they alineate their staff in the process, right? So I think the Sophia factor, which I mentioned in the subtitle, I think that is the bridge between the role, technical capability, and an actual human progress, if that makes sense.

[00:05:29] Yeah, it really does. And if we do get a little philosophical today and go back to the ancient Greeks, etc., Socratic thinking begins by admitting what we do not know. So how can a leader practice that honestly in an organization, when their employees, investors and boards are always looking towards them and expecting certainty? It feels like a very brave, bold move.

[00:05:53] Yeah, it is. So Socrates didn't leave any written records, right? Everything we know about him was penciled down by Plato, he was his student. So I don't think Socrates was actually a very enjoyable interlocutor, right? His Socratic method is basically considered in asking very probing questions

[00:06:18] over and over again in order to challenge assumptions and expose contradictions and basically just encourage deeper thinking. So Socrates' aim, according to Plato, was to drive the participant to utter confusion and impassalment, right? But that was just the first step towards gaining true knowledge. So he called

[00:06:44] that the state of confusion aporia. So for him, aporia, the objective was not to create confusion for the sake of confusion, but to achieve certainty as an intermediate step. So aporia is not just a state of confusion, but it's a vital part of the learning process. And it encourages people to question their

[00:07:08] assumptions and to dig deeper. So I think one of the issues we see again in the modern age with companies and professionals is this desire to navigate technological enablement and AI enablement with certainty. And there's an argument, I think, to show that, look, achieving certainty has to start with confusion. You don't have to stay there, but it is okay to start there and then move forward rather than

[00:07:38] understand. When we require everything to be precise and certifiable, I think that as an indication of how wisdom as a conflict has been kind of a robot in recent times in this quest that we have for, you know, technocratic perfection, if we can call it that. I just love your approach here and taking ancient wisdom and philosophy and looking at it and using

[00:08:05] it towards technology and transformation. And just to double click on that a little, can you share maybe an example of where asking a better question changed the direction of a technology decision and challenged assumption more than just finding a faster answer? Yeah. And I keep kind of looking back in the idea of human-centric technology, right? And I know that can sound very fluffy. It's like, oh, what is that? You know, but if you think about it,

[00:08:35] I do feel it's a basic requirement. And look, if we had not built a human-centric transportation system, we will not have traffic signs. We will not have pedestrian crossings. We will not have public transport, right? We will just, everything will be a big highway and parking lot. So I think it's the same with technology, right? We have to keep the person at the center of the equation. So

[00:09:04] there is an example, just to answer your question, that comes to mind when asking a question might just change the perception that we have. And so I've been in Japan for a while, like 20-something years working in this industry. A few years back, I was in this meeting, a very large Japanese corporation, you know, very serious, very formal. And this company, they were looking to leverage some

[00:09:30] digital technology. You know, they wanted to revamp their business. They wanted to get, to gain a competitive advantage. So very, very justifiable approach. And they were in a very good place for it, right? So they have the resources, they have the human talent, they have the urgency, which is something that very often is missing, especially for big corporations, right? So, you know,

[00:09:56] we go through the meetings. I start asking, you know, my questions. And I did see some signs that something might be slightly off, right? So they did not share any specific examples or just compelling reasons why the company needed to go through this very complex and very expensive process.

[00:10:18] So eventually I asked, you know, so what is the objective? Why do you want to be digital, right? Where do you want to go as a company? So the gentleman who was the leader of the team, he started explaining, but it was just like a delivery of technical jargon. So he talked about AI-driven

[00:10:42] customer engagement and blockchain-enabled supply chains and data optimization. And I kind of felt that they might be just be chasing the latest technology trends, but not grasping the underlying principles or just the human impact of what they were embarking into it, right? So the conclusion that I came away with, and I kind of put that in the book, is that they were attempting to build

[00:11:10] a digital future in a foundation of buzzwords, right? Like they were mistaking technical proficiency with true knowledge, right? So I think that happens quite often. And the one thing that I tell some of my clients is, look, ask those basic questions when you jump in and it is okay not to be digital. It is okay

[00:11:33] not to be AI-driven. Maybe just being analog or maybe just providing your services offline is what you should be doing. So using wisdom, using SOFIA to assess that, that I think is a good example of that classical great knowledge that we can incorporate in the modern business environment. And of course, Heraclitus also wrote about constant change, but employees often struggled to operate

[00:12:02] permanently in any state of disruption. So how can businesses remain adaptable so they can keep up with the pace of change, but without exhausting their people and ensuring no one gets left behind? I love that you bring up Heraclitus because he's one of my favorites. So he famously say, look, you can step twice in the same river, right? Because the waters are always flowing. So

[00:12:27] the rivers keep changing, but also you keep changing, right? So he calls that Pantarei, right? Which is the state of constant change. And I think technology is exactly like that river. It just, it moves fast, it's confusing. So in order to prevent frustration or burnout, I think leaders have to build

[00:12:54] some sort of stable banks for that flowing water. And I think again, just the answers are in the past, right? I think Heraclitus had the answer. He said, look, there is constant change, but it's not random. And there exists an underlying order or principle, which he called logos. And that's what provides

[00:13:17] stability, right? To the change. If you align yourself with logos, then you can gain a sense of order and meaning in this world of constant change. So I think if we were to try to translate that to the modern age, the technology and AI era, I think for a person as a leader to who's looking for stability in this

[00:13:43] changing world of technology, I think logos can take many different shapes. I do think innovation is probably the key one. And it's because innovation is bringing you three things, right? It gives you a base for continuous improvement. So it's not just about learning new tools. It's about cultivating a new mindset, right?

[00:14:07] And that is the tools, the technology might change, but you have that innovative mindset in the organization that just continues, right? Second one, it allows adaptability. So you can always find innovative ways to create value in the face of disruption. So if your favorite tool tomorrow goes away, it's okay because you are adaptable enough to bring whatever is the new technology to

[00:14:34] support your business. And third, it's built for sustainability, right? So you focus on long-term sustainability rather than the short-term fixes. So by building that innovation base, it kind of brings a sense of logos or a sense of order to the process. So, you know, Neil, I think

[00:14:59] people have been thinking about a lot of these things for at least 2,500 years in the Western tradition, right? So we all feel that our concerns, our worry are very new, are defined by technology, technology. But I think they all have come up at some point, right? So are they really that new? Maybe not. Yeah, yeah. 100% with you. And of course, AI generated information now can sound incredibly

[00:15:29] confident even when it's completely wrong. So what can ancient ideas do you think talk about truth and judgment? What can these teachers about deciding when to trust the machine here in 2026? Because as you said, the answers are in the past. Yeah, it's interesting because I think if you have asked anybody, you know, myself, yourself,

[00:15:54] prior to what it was November 2022, what was AI? I think most people will, the image we all have, what was this like call remote intelligence? You know, it was, what is that? Skynet, yeah, Skynet and the Terminator movies. It was 9,000 in Space Odyssey. It was like this very,

[00:16:18] very threatening, usually with a British accent for some reason, machine that was going to take cover. And then, you know, along came ChatGPT. And after 2023, when we think about AI, we think about the chatbot. I think that is there. So our perception is changing. And again, kind of looking back, which is, you know, this is the point of the book. So obviously, the classic, they didn't have AI. But you

[00:16:47] know, in ancient Greece, you have the oracles. So the oracles were revered as the voices of the gods, right? They will provide divine insights. They will deliver prophecies. So you will have all these state men and all these generals asking for directions before embarking in whatever new enterprises they had. So the oracles in general were seen as possessing a mystical connection to the divine. And the one in

[00:17:15] Delphi, the oracle of Delphi, particularly, that was the, I think it's a Herodotus in the in the histories he mentioned, and he said, is the center of the known world. And the oracle of Delphi was the, it's supposed to be the god Apollo talking through the mouth of the of the Pythia, which was the priestess, right? So that's obviously the religious reading from a secular point of view. You know, the oracles

[00:17:41] were just or in particularly the one in Delphi. It was just an institution. And what it did, it just leveraged religious belief and rituals to provide guidance, but more importantly, to maintain social order, right? It didn't speak to the god. It didn't have access to a supernatural body of language, of knowledge, sorry. It just kind of worked with whatever data was available, you know,

[00:18:06] the political status quo, you know, economic conditions, social patterns. But then it will offer alternative views and it will connect the data in a slightly different manner to provide an answer. Now, that's not sound very, very similar to the large language models, right? You have these black boxes, you don't know how they work, and they offer all this information, sometimes in a very cryptic

[00:18:35] way, right? So again, when you are a modern person that is tackling with how to handle AI solutions, I think, back on the day, the question is, should you trust the oracle? And nowadays, it's should you trust the machine? So maybe the question is, should you be looking at the person behind the curtain? Should you be? Because obviously, LLM models, they have different take-on-dose,

[00:19:05] data, depending on the data they have been trained on. They have a different agenda, because you know, they are promoted by different companies, right? So having that awareness of how the model works and what it's coming from, I think is going to give you an advantage, right? So some of the same discernment and some of the same critical thinking that was essential for ancient grids when dealing with

[00:19:30] prophecies, I think is very important now when we are dealing with these technical solutions. And again, I think wisdom and Sophia is there to kind of help and take some learnings from that area and apply them to our modern world. And there's just so much I love how you tie in ancient wisdom with our digital age where we all find ourselves now. And you also connect Epicurus' idea of tranquility with digital anxiety. Again,

[00:19:59] great link. But what practical choices can leaders make to reduce all of the noise, the distraction and fear without ignoring real technological change? So it's interesting because we often have this case, right, when we receive these concepts from classical tradition. But over time, they get slightly misrepresented, right? So cynism is one that I love,

[00:20:25] right? Because nowadays we understand it's like a jaded, stressful attitude. But actually the original concept comes from a kinismus, which was literally meant dog-like, like being like a dog. And it was kind of for the time, it was a radical philosophy. We just basically say, look, reject social conventions and live a natural life in harmony with the world, right? Epicureanism in a way I think has suffered from

[00:20:55] the same. Like if you ask somebody what an Epicurean is, it's probably understood that somebody who greatly enjoys sensual pleasure, right? But I think that's a misrepresentation of the principle of what he called ataraxia, which was freedom from anxiety. So Epicureanism, what he taught was that people often pursue unnecessary or excessive pleasure thinking that will bring them happiness. But true pleasure

[00:21:24] was found in moderation, was found on the satisfaction of very simple desires, right? And so the key to ataraxia, which is counterintuitive, was not to overindulge, but the ability to live without craving. So again, kind of trying to bring that back to the modern era. If you think about a modern leader,

[00:21:46] you know, how could somebody like that implement ataraxia? What he or she could be doing is, how can you eliminate friction within the organization when you are going through your technological implementation or your technological process, right? So for example, can you personalize the project to the organization, right? Can you find a way to reduce decision fatigue by having it tailor-made

[00:22:15] for your own company? Can you make the system reliable, right? So the more reliable the process and the system is, you increase predictability and you reduce uncertainty. Again, you are eliminating friction. Can you provide significant value? And significant value means for your employees, but also for your

[00:22:38] customers. And I think in sort is, if you can make it simple, if you can do the implementation of the process following the principle of ataraxia, you make it, you avoid overload, then I think the end result is just going to be beneficial internally and externally. And again, I think it's a lesson. It's not about technology. It's about implementation. And it's a lesson that is there on the table for us to pick up.

[00:23:08] And I suspect we may have a few leaders listening that love philosophy, but feel that it can sometimes feel incredibly distant from modern age budgets, deadlines and operational pressure. So to tie this all together, how do you translate these ancient ideas into a meeting so that it can meet governance processes or investment decisions? How do you bring all these ideas together?

[00:23:34] Yes. And I wouldn't blame any of your listeners if they think, look, philosophy, what does that have to do with me? But I will argue, if I may, that philosophy is probably the ultimate risk management tool. And it can't really be directly connected to sound investment, right? Because imagine when you bring

[00:23:56] wisdom, you know, the concept of Sophia to a budget meeting, you stop wasting your money on shiny objects, right? We told before about ataraxia or reducing friction, right? But I think when we talk about philosophy how do we apply to investment or governance, and when that concerns technological changes, I think you need to do the opposite. You need to build specific friction points so you can pressure

[00:24:26] test your assumptions before you start spending money, right? So for example, before you sign off on a new tech vendor, right, you make it mandatory for that company or solution to answer, does this tool serve our people? Or are our people going to be serving the tool, you know, like the machine god? So again, I think

[00:24:49] wisdom gives you the practical framework where you can kill bad investments before they drain your budget. And by pressure testing your thinking process is not just a comparison between technical capabilities, it's an overview of the framework, those technical solutions are going to be hanging and how they affect your company, your organization and society.

[00:25:14] And I'd love to try and unite everybody listening to our conversation today and encourage them to think differently and embrace digital wisdom. So when a leader faces that may be a major AI decision today, what kind of questions should they ask to determine whether it serves people and the organization rather than merely following the market and doing exactly the same as what everyone else does? And I think this is an important message right now, especially if everyone's using the same AI tools and asking the AI for

[00:25:43] the same questions, everyone's going to have the same answers. No one's going to stand out from the crowd, right? Yeah, no, excellent question. And again, you know, I might not have the solution, but one idea that I have, I think we are now still trying to decide if modern AI is going to be a Skynet or a calculator, right? Will this be the status quo threatening solution,

[00:26:10] or it will just be a tool that helps us to do things better, right? So we need, I do agree with you, we do need help with making AI related decisions. And my suggestions will be just start by asking two questions, but ask two questions that have nothing to do with technology capabilities or AI solution. Just the first one,

[00:26:34] what is my identity as a company or as an organization, right? And Plato did put a lot of thought on identity, you know, he defined it as the essence of the soul. But those ideas, I think they work in organization as well, right? And, you know, like a famous example, you have somebody like Blockbuster, you know, the entertainment retailer. Blockbuster should have been Netflix, right? Yeah.

[00:27:02] They should have been, they should have embraced the technology to emphasize the idea of identity they had. I think the problem they had is that they thought they were a videotape rental business, when they should have considered themselves an entertainment business that just happened to take place in a, in, you know, through videotapes, right?

[00:27:23] So, when you have the, when you sort out your identity, I think the ideas about what technology to use, including AI, they come through, right? So, for me, that would be the first one. What is, you know, what is my identity? The second one is what, what I call in the book, the Gorgias ethical check, right? Are we innovating ethically or are we manipulating?

[00:27:50] And so, so Gorgias was a follower of the sophist movement, one of, um, a philosophical school that just saw tremendous power in manipulating people through the power of words and speech, right? So, uh, uh, what we call, yeah, a sophist nowadays. So, uh, uh, what we call the sophists, what we call the sophist?

[00:28:13] And so, uh, we call this the sophist, right? So it's interesting because at one point, I think Socrates, Plato and Aristoteles, they all criticized the sophists, right? That approach to, that very mercantile approach to, to philosophy. And I think if you have the all three heavyweights of Western thought against you, you probably should reconsider your behavior.

[00:28:35] So what Gorgias and the Sophies were doing is actually very similar to what we have seen in the modern era with data harvesting operations and people trying to use algorithms to game the system. We have 2015 with Cambridge Analytica, you know, we're kind of siphoning data from Facebook to kind of deliver political messages. So I think that's a second question of am I acting ethically?

[00:29:06] A leader must ensure that he's not actually acting as a sophist, right? They need to ask if they have the transparency, consent and accountability structures in place to ensure that their AI development is going to be ethical. So two simple questions. Identity, who am I? And am I doing this the right way? What is your ethical compass? Absolutely, Lufla.

[00:29:34] And for everybody listening, I'd love to give them a final takeaway because I think we've probably ignited a few light bulb moments in people here embracing the thoughts of the past ancient wisdom and taking that to digital wisdom where we are now. For anybody that's read your book, what would that be? What would be that big final takeaway you'd love to leave them with?

[00:29:59] The one thing that I was keeping at the forefront of my process through the book, and this is actually something that I also think is quite true, is I will argue that technology has not changed us at all. It has changed the world, yes, but not really of human nature.

[00:30:19] So all the anxieties that plague us nowadays, you know, all these concerns we have about identity, who we are, belonging, you know, how we fit in a group, and just the world, what is reality or how we measure it. These are not terribly different from the questions that have been basically haunting humanity for millennia. I think we are just grappling with them in a new digital context, right?

[00:30:48] So are my online relations any more real than my real-life relations, right? Is my online reputation more important than my real-life reputation? So there is a fascinance in the line between the offline and the online, right? I think that the paradigm shift that the first Greek philosophers brought was they tried to systematize the search for the answers.

[00:31:17] And that's what they called that search Sophia. That's what wisdom was all about, right? So the learnings that they developed, they are out there, you know, they are ready to be picked up. And as sophisticated as we feel we are, we have our streaming services and our iPhones and our online influencers. Our anxieties have no change so much that we cannot learn from the lessons of those philosophers. Yeah, I completely agree.

[00:31:47] And for anybody listening who want to find out more about you, the book, Digital Wisdom, where can they find out more information? So I'm easy to find in LinkedIn. It's like the place that I'm pretty active. The book is available in all major platforms. And, you know, if any of your listeners happen to be in Tokyo, I am now planning a joint series of lectures with Paul Dupuy,

[00:32:14] which is a Tokyo-based, very senior former CEO and executive coach. And we are going to be talking about the intersection between technology, leadership and philosophy. So I think this can be an interesting one. It is incredibly cool what you're doing here. And I've said several times, but again, I love how you're combining ancient philosophical insights with contemporary business strategies that help leaders approach digital change with better clarity and purpose.

[00:32:42] And I do think very often we're so focused on looking ahead and on the next big thing that maybe the answers we're looking for could be in the past. And I think that is such a powerful message. So I will add links to everything you mentioned, your LinkedIn, where people can find the book, Digital Wisdom. But thank you for encouraging everyone to think a little bit differently today. Really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for the time today and for the opportunity to be in your platform.

[00:33:08] One of the many things I loved about the conversation today was my guest's argument that philosophy becomes practical at the moment it changes a decision. Asking what kind of organization you are, whether a tool serves your people and whether consent, transparency and accountability are present. All these things can expose weaknesses before any money is committed.

[00:33:31] And I think his comparison there between AI and the Oracle of Delphi also stays with me because a confident answer still deserves scrutiny, especially when we cannot see every assumption or source behind it because AI can very often be just a black box. So a big thank you to Alfonso for joining me today and showing why the past can still help us think clearly about the way forward and modern technology.

[00:34:00] And you can find Digital Wisdom through major book platforms and connect with Alfonso on LinkedIn. I'll put all the links in the show notes. But over to you. Which question would improve the next AI investment decision inside your organization? And are leaders prepared to hear the answer that might challenge that plan? As always, techtalksnetwork.com. I'll leave a link to the book and everything that we talked about today. But that's it for today.

[00:34:30] So thank you for listening as always. Bye for now. Bye for now. Bye.