From Startup Grit to Enterprise Scale: The Cask Canada Approach

[00:00:01] Welcome to the Startup Builders and Backers Show, a podcast which is part of the Tech Talks Network. I'm Neil C. Hughes and you may know me from the Tech Talks Daily Podcast, which covers a completely different topic every day around how technology is ultimately impacting our life, our work and even world.

[00:00:22] But the Tech Talks Network is a series of unique podcasts that drill down on unique subjects and showcase the voices right at the heart of tech startups. And in this series, I want to shine a spotlight on the energetic world of startups where bold entrepreneurs and visionary investors come together and create the world-beating solutions of tomorrow.

[00:00:47] So the conversations you can expect to hear on this show will dive right into the journeys of those building innovative companies and also the strategic insights of those who support them. Balancing the excitement of breakthrough ideas with the more pragmatic challenges of scaling a business. So if you're a startup founder, you get to learn from other founders some of the mistakes they learned and also some of the opportunities that they unlocked along the way.

[00:01:14] So I invite you to join us as we unpack the risks, the rewards and the realities of turning those groundbreaking concepts into successful enterprises. My guest journey offers a masterclass in what it means to scale fast, build smart and stay local in a global tech economy. His career has taken him from the heart of the dot-com boom in San Francisco to the center of digital transformation in Canada.

[00:01:41] But today, after eight years in the ServiceNow ecosystem, he is at the helm of the strongest pure play ServiceNow partner in the Americas. He's going to share today what it's really like to launch a tech services firm in today's environment where AI automation and evolving client expectations are completely rewriting the rule book.

[00:02:04] And we'll also explore how Cast Canada approached its first year, the team building strategies that paid off, the unexpected challenges for being a new player in a mature ecosystem, and how being a relationship first, not just a tech first company can set a consultancy apart. So how do you build trust, scale impact and deliver transformation in a market where that bar keeps rising?

[00:02:30] Well, it's time for me to officially introduce you to today's guest. So thank you for joining me on the podcast today. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do? Yes. Hi, my name is Jeff Butler. I am general manager here at Cast Canada. We're a proud Canadian tech startup.

[00:02:49] I've been in the business over, well, really in sales over 20 years. We're a proud implementation partner of ServiceNow. And yeah, it's been an absolutely wonderful journey. And speaking of journeys, before we started recording the podcast today, we were talking about we're both the same age. Your ancestors grew up not far from where I grew up. It's a very small world out there.

[00:03:13] And I'd love to ask you, as regards your journey, tell me about your origin story. Where did your passion for tech come from? What lit the spark and put you on this path? Great question. Well, I graduated in 1996 from McGill University in Montreal, and then moved out to San Francisco originally to become a school teacher. That was what I started, went to Cal State in San Francisco. And from there, as you can imagine, really exciting opportunity because I got a front row seat to the dot-com revolution.

[00:03:43] And in that regard, I had a lot of friends working at Oracle and Apple and all sorts of startups, et cetera. Attended a number of the dot-com launch parties that they had back then, which were, as you can imagine, quite extravagant affairs in downtown San Francisco. And it really provided me an interesting, as I said, front row seat to what I think is the start of modern technology. Like technology in the way that it re-interact. Devices like the iPod came out while I was living there.

[00:04:13] Google was launched. Amazon started. So it was really interesting to see these very local Bay Area companies and companies that were obviously started around San Francisco grow. And I never really lost that perspective in terms of understanding, okay, you've got a new technology that's coming along. How is this going to change the roadmap? How is it going to change the way people interact with each other? I mean, again, I remember when Amazon started, it was just selling books.

[00:04:43] That's all they did. And obviously, we understand how it's really changed the landscape and been a massive disruptor. And so when I even when I see other technologies like AI coming along, I'm very curious to see how that will all play out. But I think the truth is right now you can be all the punditry you want. But the truth is none of us really know how it's all going to play out until it actually happens. What a great story and an amazing journey that you've been on there. And fast forward to present day.

[00:05:11] We're now talking about Cask Canada, the strongest pure play service now partner in the Americas. Tell me about that journey over the past years. What were your first steps in building this standout presence in the ServiceNow ecosystem from the ground up? Because it's a fantastic story what you've achieved here. It is considered a crowded market in some areas. But to create something like this and stand out from the crowd in the way that you are, tell me about that journey.

[00:05:38] I was approached in late 2023 because I have a lot of relationships. I've been a part of this ServiceNow ecosystem since 2017 and had worked at some other organizations, KPMG for a while. I was at Kindrel as well. So I've been known in the marketplace. And the folks from Cask were looking to build an organization here in Canada and were looking for a general manager. So I was put in touch with them and really started the conversations.

[00:06:06] In fact, it's a funny story that when I was first approached for this, I actually thought I was interviewing for a sales rep job. And then in about the two or three minutes after the interview started, he started talking about, well, as general manager. And I just didn't even correct him. I just said, oh, okay. And so it kind of went from there. But really, so that was where it started. And what was been really exciting for me is just turned 50 a year or two ago.

[00:06:32] And at this point in my career, it was such an amazing opportunity that I had in which all of a sudden it was almost like a culmination of all the experiences. Having worked again at places like IBM, KPMG, Kindrel, et cetera, built all these experiences, built all these relationships along the way. And what's been fun for me is I've really been able to build a really fantastic team. It's all started and it really begins and ends, I would say, a lot with the delivery team that I have.

[00:07:00] I honestly believe we have the best team here in Canada in the ServiceNow ecosystem. And a lot of those folks are just folks that I've met along the way. And it really is, to this day, a relationship business. It all has to do with who are you able to build those connections? Are you able to build trust? I mean, that's how it works with the ServiceNow team that I work with, how it works with my colleagues on the delivery side, as well as really working with the customers. Because as you know, people buy from people that they like, they know, they trust.

[00:07:30] And sometimes in this world, the trust can be in short supply. It really can. It certainly feels that way now. And one of the things that stands out about you is your authenticity and an incredibly humble guy. And you're probably far too modest to even mention this. But you led Cask Canada from a startup to a dominant force in the ServiceNow ecosystem, building a team from the ground up, winning major enterprise clients and navigating challenges all within a year.

[00:08:00] And obviously, me saying that out loud made it sound incredibly easy. But what were some of the most unexpected challenges or surprising wins that you encountered while launching a tech consultancy in Canada's current digital transformation climate? Incredibly exciting what you've done here. But tell me more about that. Well, really, it's been a great journey. I mean, it was interesting. I've really come... My colleague, my peer, Rubens, is the general manager of Cask in Brazil.

[00:08:29] And we work very, very closely together. One of the things he met when I went to San Diego for the meetings, which is where Cask is based globally, for the initial meetings, he sat me down and he said, patience is one of the most important things that you're going to have to have in your first year. Because it's true. You're very excited. You're kicking off something new. You don't know where it's going to go. But what I really learned to appreciate during this journey was, even as I started to get into kind of, I don't know, May, April of our first year, 2024,

[00:08:57] or even into the early summer, it wasn't quite clicking the way I wanted it to. And what I've really come to learn in this whole process is you have to respect the sort of seasonality of our business. We're not school teachers. As I mentioned at one point, might have mentioned at one point earlier in my career, I started off as a school teacher. But really, there is a seasonality to understanding the market, how people buy, where your customers are and their journeys. And I remember remarking to a colleague much later on in September, October,

[00:09:26] boy, if with all the opportunities and all the things that are happening right now, as things are really taking off, if we'd been there in May or June, boy, I'd be way ahead of where I am now. But that's just not how things work, right? Things happen. There is a time. We all know things slow down a bit in the summer. Clients aren't around as much. They're taking holidays. Maybe they're doing some planning. So really kind of understanding that seasonality has been really important in terms of just having that patience, knowing when to kind of move on something new or not.

[00:09:55] The other thing I'll mention, and as you did mention before, are similar backgrounds. My family and my grandfather actually grew up and repped in England in the north of England. And I've always had a great affinity for the Beatles. And I was reading last year, many years from now, by Barry Miles. And it was a really fascinating read. And in one section of the book, he talks about taking risks.

[00:10:23] And he talks about happy accidents and just really being open to new things. That's really something that I've really learned in this process. There's a lot of salespeople out there who I think they think they have some kind of magical intuition to think they know this customer or this opportunity or reaching out to this partner to work with is going to work out or not. What I've really learned in this whole process is you really never know what's going to happen. Say yes as much as you can.

[00:10:52] Because there's all sorts of... To prejudge and think, oh, I know how this is going to work out or not. There's not many of us, I think, that could really do that perfectly, if any of us. Another thing I would say that really has helped is... And again, I've mentioned it a couple of times. But really, the relationship piece just can't be overstated. Why would somebody do a half-million-dollar ServiceNow project with our organization versus another? It really comes down to a lot of probably intangibles.

[00:11:21] In my experience, Neil, most people make decisions emotionally and they justify them intellectually, right? Oh, we've decided to go with Jeff and the cast team because of this, this, and this. But really, more likely, it was a feel. It was responding to the energy that I'm putting off. It was responding to the way my team and I interact with each other. And it's impossible to kind of quantify that stuff. But I just absolutely can't... Don't believe for a minute that that stuff can be understated.

[00:11:50] And as you say, I'm really proud of the team we built here. I mean, the fact that we're now... Here I am on April 22nd. We have 25 people here at Cast Canada. If you would have said that to me that that was going to happen a year ago, I wouldn't have believed you. But really, it's really about, as I see, being genuine, positive, delivering value. That's really how it's come about. And I can't be more proud of the team that we built along the way.

[00:12:14] And not only are we from very similar parts of the world, if we look at your ancestors and where I was raised and of a similar age, I would also echo what you said there around saying yes as much as you can. I've had 3,500 interviews on this podcast. And those happy accidents that you mentioned there and the universe giving you that little nudge in the right direction when you need it. I've got so many different stories around that of people sat next to somebody on a plane or a luggage carousel

[00:12:43] or sat next to someone in a bar that ended up being their developer or partner. You know, there's so many of these stories, it can't be a coincidence. But I think the universe does give us that little nudge in the right direction. You need to be open to it, to act on it, though, too, right? Absolutely. That's a great point. Like, it's really about that openness. As I said, I recall, I mean, again, being in the sales business for many, many years and working in the IT industry,

[00:13:09] I've often seen sales reps who, for their own reasons, kind of are very selective with their time and sort of all of a sudden magically show up at a customer when they think that person has budget, but then switch it off and ignore them for the next six months to a year when they don't. Yeah. I think to myself, customers can, like, we're all humans. They can absolutely, consciously, subconsciously see through that a mile away. I remember years ago, do you remember the TV show Comedians and Cars Getting Coffee? Did you ever see that with Jerry Seinfeld? Yes.

[00:13:39] Yes. Yeah, I only saw a couple of them, but the ones I did see were brilliant. Yeah. Okay. One I really recommend to you, which I think really is actually an interesting kind of encapsulation of a lot of what I was talking about before, about relationships and just energy and saying yes and positivity, et cetera. In that, he talks, he interviews Gary Shandling. You remember Gary? Yeah. Oh, Gary Shandling show, Larry Sanders. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:14:04] And unfortunately, it was about two or three weeks before Gary passed, and they are on the Sunset Strip, and they're talking, and they're driving along in the car, and Gary becomes a little bit emotional, and he's talking about Robin Williams. And what's funny, by the way, just another kind of random, I just have to put this in here, but I actually taught Robin Williams' son and daughter when I worked at that private school in San Francisco.

[00:14:27] So I had a little interaction with Robin and his wife, Marsha, or his wife at the time, Marsha, when I was living out there. But anyway, back to the story. I'm interrupting myself. In that story, he talks about Robin Williams, and he talks about, and it's just something that's always really stuck with me. And he's like, I remember the first time I saw Robin Williams, and so did Jerry. And he's like, I don't remember any of the jokes.

[00:14:51] I don't remember what he said, but I just remember that energy, like that love that really came across, right? And I think that is really, I hope, and I think with you as well, like when somebody's doing what they're passionate about, what they're born to do, it really comes a lot across, right? It's really natural, and people just want to be a part of that. You know, you could go interview somebody afterwards at the University of Toronto, Mississauga, who just signed up with us, and say, why are you going with Jeff and Kask?

[00:15:21] And maybe they say, oh, well, their price was this, and their experience with this, but I really believe it's much more higher level than that. You know what I mean? I think it's really about energy, and I think it's about, that's how people, like I said, at the middle, that's how people make decisions. And so, as I said, I think that piece of just, that's always stuck with me, is just, how do I create an environment?

[00:15:46] How do I find a way to make a connection with people that they want to find a way to keep that going? Yeah, no, and I completely agree with you. It's something I've experienced as well, and I do think there is high energy, low energy. And I think if you watch too much TV right now and read too many newspapers and social media, you will have pretty low energy quite quickly. Absolutely. Shoot out of that stuff. Beaten down, exactly. Defeated, yeah.

[00:16:16] And it's funny because, yeah, even if, again, if you're feeling defeated, and let's say you're a manufacturer and you're trying to figure out how you're going to work with tariffs or whatever, how on earth are you supposed to be positive and send positive notes and positive energy to your clients and make connections with people? And that person you're interviewing, get them to encourage them to join your team. They're not going to want to be a part of that. You're just feeling beaten down or negative or crushed.

[00:16:44] And one thing that I've really realized about it is, and one of the things, like I've said before, I absolutely believe I'm in the right job for me. And because I couldn't enjoy it more. The best part of what I do, one of the best things that I enjoy doing is building genuine relationships with our customers. And as you said, we've got some really major clients in a variety of industries from banking to insurance to government agencies and natural gas organizations, etc. across the country.

[00:17:13] And I have really found a way with each of those customers to find a way to genuinely connect to them and find a way in which, in a very authentic way, we can form a friendship. And when you form that friendship, they might need a favor. They might need something. I need something by Friday afternoon at four o'clock, Jeff. Or I might need a favor. I might need a project to move up a week. You can't do that.

[00:17:38] You can't ask for those kind of favors or that kind of collaboration unless you've formed a really, truly genuine partnership. And that person has a stake in wanting to work with you and help you out, right? So I hope it's coming across loud and clear that there is that magic. And it's unfortunate. I think a lot of people, exactly to your point that you just made a moment ago, they can sometimes close themselves off from those opportunities by being stuck in their mind too much.

[00:18:08] They're not necessarily using their heart. They're really thinking, oh, okay, well, intellectually, this opportunity is worth this and that opportunity is worth that. Or this customer's more high profile, so I need to go after that. It kind of doesn't matter. It's really more about kind of what I like to say, respecting the sales gods, right? You need to respect the process. You need to respect that sometimes it happens not on your schedule but on someone else's.

[00:18:33] But I think if you do that and you're open to it, and as we said also, you're patient, the world's your oyster. You're never going to want for work. Yeah, 100% with you, especially on Say Yes as much as you can. And ServiceNow plays a central role in so many different digital transformation projects around the world. As this is a tech podcast, I'm going to have to ask an AI question.

[00:18:57] So how are you seeing AI and automation reshaping the way that organizations are thinking about platform strategy? Because we all see the hype in our news feeds, but we're now entering three years in. Things are getting very real. We're seeing maturity. How are you seeing AI and automation reshaping this in very real terms? What are you seeing out there right now? What I would say is it's just getting started in a sense.

[00:19:24] I mean, but very quickly, ServiceNow is really transforming itself from kind of being primarily thought of as a digital workflow company. And I think that element will always be there. But AI is quickly catching up because, I mean, let's face it. What ServiceNow did when Fred Letty brought ServiceNow to market in 2004, he built a platform. And at the time, of course, the market said, well, what's a platform? And so he went off and built a bunch of workflows around ITSM or IT service management.

[00:19:54] And really, from there, of course, built out this concept of a ticket's a ticket's a ticket. It could be a security ticket. It could be a facilities ticket. It could be an HR ticket to add someone to your benefits. But really, ServiceNow, I think, in my mind, has really cornered that market around managing digital workflow virtually better than any other organization. And that's their strength. Like, it's not just because they've dominated the space around IT ticketing. But really, where they go next is going to be really fascinating in a couple of interesting ways.

[00:20:22] So they started off in terms of adding some of those basic elements around how AI can help the management, let's say, after hours when the IT team isn't there. I need instructions on how to connect my iPad to the corporate network or how to back up a device or things like that. So starting off with providing an enhanced experience around virtual agent. So making that virtual agent from being just a couple of managed conversations that would be a few years ago.

[00:20:49] With Gen.ai involved, obviously, that agent experience, that virtual agent experience has become enhanced. But still, in many cases, depending on where you go, eventually you're going to get handed off to an agent to kind of drive that conversation.

[00:21:05] Now, it's very exciting to see what ServiceNow is doing around the agent AI experience, where it's really creating these almost these bots or these agents that are within the ServiceNow platform that are, again, further enhancing what the ServiceNow system can do without any involvement of humans. So that's one area of the business that's very interesting.

[00:21:29] What's also, I think, quite fascinating and probably not reported on as much is the impact that AI is going to have on the implementation kind of professional services business, which is obviously my business. There's no question in five years it's going to look entirely different. The analogy that I often have, though, in my head is where I've seen demos of products that allow you to effectively configure the ServiceNow platform.

[00:21:57] In fact, there's a product was from ServiceNow called the Creator Flow Plus SKU that effectively allows you to put in a very simple workflow and it can configure that product itself, which obviously is what our business has been. Again, we've been in there configuring the ServiceNow platform for our clients, but the idea that the platform can actually start to configure itself is quite interesting.

[00:22:20] But what I see, at least in the short run, and again, like I said at the top, I don't think any of us can predict exactly where AI will take us as it continues to evolve. But what I see in the short run is it's still a world kind of like, for instance, when I might use Google Translate for a translation.

[00:22:38] You still want a native French speaker to review what you put through the document to make sure that it's actually holding on to the sense of what you're trying to do, that it's not including any translation errors. I think we're still in that world where there's quite a bit of human involvement or engagement around the configuration side. But as I said before, I am quite interested to see the way this develops.

[00:23:03] And certainly the implementation partners that are able to capitalize on that automation first are going to be the ones that are going to dominate the market. 100% with you. And I think it is easy very often to get distracted by the latest shiny technology and often forget that it's people and the culture in an enterprise that brings that technology to life, delivers the value, delivers the ROI on those expensive tech projects.

[00:23:30] And when I look at your career here, building an elite consulting team is no small task, man. So especially in this highly competitive talent market that we see out there. So what lessons did you learn about attracting and retaining the right people to deliver the success that you've enjoyed? Absolutely. Well, thanks. What I would say is, and again, I don't mean to sound like a one-note piano here, but it's always, again, back to the relationship.

[00:23:56] So a lot of the folks that I've worked with are people that I've worked with in my past life at various organizations. And that's what's really been fun is kind of, to use another term, getting the band back together. Getting a bunch of people that really trust each other, that want to work together. There are in our business, as you can imagine, there's a lot of people out there who prefer to work as independent contractors, guns for hire. They'll work on this project for six months. They'll then go and start with another organization.

[00:24:23] You know, what those folks have to realize, of course, which I assume they do, is they're not getting invited to any Christmas party. There's no summer barbecue that they're going to be a part of. And if they are, and I think that's really been an important part of our success, is creating people who see my vision, see the passion of me in the organization. Madan Raj is my delivery director, does a fantastic job of kind of helping to vet a lot of the people that we talk to.

[00:24:49] But we have a vision that we talk to people during that recruiting process. And if they're not sold on the vision, if they're thinking, I want to get top dollar for my time, absolutely no issue with that. I respect the fact that they value what they do and they want to get paid fairly for it. But really what we're doing is wanting people who want to be a part of, again, building the Cask brand and building the Cask organization.

[00:25:18] Something that, again, we're already very, very proud of. And so if those folks don't have that vision, if they don't share that idea of wanting to be a part of something that's bigger than them and really having opportunities to, especially for some of the senior people, to help build the next generation of developers and technical consultants. Those are the folks that we've been really successful in finding as those people who have that vision. It's not just about working with the client projects.

[00:25:46] It's not just about, as I said, making money, but it's really the big picture. Now, mind you, of course, it's important to fairly compensate people. What I've also been doing an awful lot of, as I can, and it, of course, gets a little harder as we continue to grow the team, is finding opportunities to check in with people as much as possible.

[00:26:03] So even as general manager, taking time out of my day, my week to really check in with people at some point, and it hasn't happened yet, knock on wood, somebody's going to choose to leave the organization, maybe go to another company that they're excited to be a part of.

[00:26:17] But really, if I can foster that feeling of a family, a culture, an organization, that to me goes an awful long way because I think a lot of people, most of us, there's a lot more that we are focused on in life than just dollars and cents, so to speak. Yeah, and I think that those people, that culture that you've built there has played a massive role in CASC receiving significant recognition as a ServiceNow partner.

[00:26:46] But for people listening, maybe hearing about CASC for the first time, what is it you think that sets your approach apart in such a crowded field of consultancies and integrators from all over the world? What is it that makes you guys different? Great question. I would say one of the things that, I mean, certainly we have built a reputation in the marketplace already of kind of fixing what we call in the business $5 haircuts, right?

[00:27:14] If somebody comes along, let's say they were very impressed and got a low price on that initial implementation. Listen, let's face the facts. In our world, implementing the technology is the easy part, right? Going from tool A to tool B is not a problem. But if you're going to make that change and expect a different result, expect all that business value that the vendor has promised, you're probably going to have to significantly change the way you work.

[00:27:43] So as an example, a project a while ago was an HR project we were working on and a client asked, oh, can we have the Ask HR email address that we have today? Can we just have that create tickets on its own? And of course, the answer was yes. But I said, but if we do that, I don't think you're going to see the kind of transformation, like having your ticket in one platform versus another isn't going to drastically change.

[00:28:08] What we're looking for here is encouraging people to use tools like self-service, virtual agents, search for the answers on their own and find them real time versus the older model of I'm calling a help desk and expecting somebody to kind of come along and fix it for you. So what I would say is that at culture, and I think that's something that really was impressed upon me when I was originally approached by a CASC organization.

[00:28:35] CASC in California, when it started, it actually started as more of a business process consulting organization. That's really where they got their start. They got their start. And that's something that I think they've never really let go of. And certainly something that I was excited to bring to the Canadian marketplace is really that emphasis and focus on having someone look at and say, okay, right now, if your current process involves three approvals for all of your tickets, that's incredibly inefficient.

[00:29:02] What if we could set up a business rule that would enable some of those to be automated based on the dollar amount involved, et cetera, et cetera. So as I said, I really think that bringing the element, bringing that trust, bringing that ability to help those clients see the outcomes, that's the critical element. It's not about implementing technology. It's about seeing the outcomes. That is why people take on these projects. It's not about a new interface. It really is changing fundamentally the way that you operate.

[00:29:32] So that's really been, I think, critical to the way that we've grown is building that reputation. One of the things I'll also call out is of our, let's say, 11 clients that we've acquired in our first year, 10 of those were existing ServiceNow customers. So they've worked with other partners. They've had probably their ups and downs there, but clearly something wasn't working. And what's been great about that process in terms of working with each one of them is

[00:30:01] you don't have to convince them that not all architects or developers are created equal. They realize this is not a commodity space, that if you have the best talent, if you have the best organization, if you have the best technical architects, et cetera, you're going to see far better outcomes than just going in for a low price. It's been really critical for us. And one thing that CAST does a little bit differently than a lot of our competitors, we do use some

[00:30:27] nearshore resources from Brazil and Mexico, but we don't have any resources in Philippines, India, and other places. We certainly appreciate and understand nobody's budget is unlimited, and we try to do the best course that we can. But really, this is about what's the value? What's the best value that we can provide in terms of those resources? So all of those resources are virtually on the same time zones because they're all located in the Americas, so they're all local to here.

[00:30:54] And language, communication skills, everyone we put in front of a customer has excellent communication skills. So though we all understand no one has a limited budget, they want things to go as far as possible, in our business, we really think it's critical that you have the best resources working with you, consulting, bringing their experience. And one other element I'll say that's really been critical, and I've heard this over and over again in my career from CIOs across a variety of industries, but it's the same message.

[00:31:23] I want your team to help us understand how to best leverage this technology. I don't want them to do everything my team asks them to do. And that's really critical. They want people to push back. Good consultants won't just let you say, oh, yes, I'm going to let you configure the product this way, only to have to unconfigure that product and do it a different way two or three months later once they start using the tool.

[00:31:48] So I really believe that's another way in which you can help to build those trusting relationships is by stopping clients and really delivering them value beyond what their expectation was. I had a situation with a particular client. Like, I believe she had, for one project we were bidding on, had earmarked $75,000 for the project. When we handed her a proposal, I think she almost fell off her chair. What was exciting about that was, for me as a general manager, I wasn't disappointed and

[00:32:18] say, oh, geez, I could have charged her more for that. I was excited. And I said, well, think of all the things, and this is what we talked about, think of all the things that we can now do together in terms of improving other areas of your platform platform because we haven't had to use all of that budget on this one workflow. So I think a lot of those kind of elements have really helped to build that trusting relationship, whereas the customer can have an open conversation with their team about how much budget they think

[00:32:44] they should cost with me in the room because they know it's not like I'm going to be trying to artificially inflate or change what that budget might be. Love it. As someone who's got the ear of so many business leaders from all around the world, I'm curious, what is top of mind for your clients right now when you group all of those conversations together? Are there any trends? And if there are, how are you helping them move the needle on some of those big topics, those big pain points?

[00:33:15] Yeah. Well, one thing that's been... I'll start off with something that's a bit of a surprise. Again, in this current geopolitical climate, it's probably not a surprise. But one of the things that's been top of the mind most with a lot of clients I talk to is being local. It's never been more important in my career. And it's almost ironic because I think when we came out of COVID, that had a massive impact on our industry. In previous times, people regularly would go into, as part of a deployment or part of an engagement, we would have people go on site.

[00:33:43] Since COVID, I think we've all realized that isn't necessarily required. I certainly have a lot of conversations with clients that, especially during kickoff meetings or various celebrations, et cetera, or critical meetings, we'll get together in person. But really, a lot of the work is now performed remotely. But even in that context, I think it's really, really important to a lot of clients that, especially here in Canada, that they are looking and supporting Canadians and working with the Canadian company, which we are, and supporting Canadian jobs.

[00:34:10] And I think that's something that, as I said, was a bit of a surprise initially, just how vehement and how passionately people were talking about that. But it's something that's really changed the game. And I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens over the months and years as things to come. When you look at some of these larger Big Four, Accenture, Deloitte, at least larger organizations that have really built these global teams to see how that's going to operate.

[00:34:35] Because as I said, I don't see this emphasis on working with local people going away. So that's one thing that's definitely top of mind. Certainly, as we talked about before, there's a lot of curiosity, not necessarily jumping in with both feet, but a lot of curiosity to understand how AI is going to change our marketplace, how it's going to enable these tools, how it's going to enable people to provide a better experience to their end customers. So that's another area I think that's going to be, is very, very much top of mind for people.

[00:35:04] Trying to think, other areas where I've seen a lot of changes is really, well, I guess the other element that it's really, again, particularly in a ServiceNow world, that's really been very much top of mind for people, is integrations. I think there was a time years ago, and again, Neil, I'm sure in the industry you've been here, years ago, people would say, oh yeah, we're a Microsoft shop, or we're an Oracle shop, or an IBM shop. That doesn't really exist much anymore.

[00:35:31] But with a lot of customer, with a lot of organizations I've seen from a technology perspective, companies like Microsoft, Salesforce, ServiceNow certainly comes to mind as well. Everyone, I think, is really trying to become that connector, that piece that sits in the middle, that digital workflow layer that people are interacting with, that's connecting up SAP success factors or Workday or whatever. But people really want, they don't love swivel chair, of course, they want all of these pieces

[00:36:00] to work together. And so that is something that we're seeing a lot of, a lot of the projects that we've engaged on the last six months have been working with clients to help them build out those connectivity pieces to make sure that everything is kind of playing together. Because the idea of, again, having to download or upload flat files and update things, et cetera, or if I make a change here, how do I make sure it gets changed everywhere else?

[00:36:26] Those are elements, I think, that are really, really critical to help people kind of manage their technology versus the technology, them having to manage the way the technology wants to work, if that makes sense. And I think another thing that many enterprises are struggling with is spinning so many different plates and trying to find the right balance between innovation, shiny new technology and business as usual tasks, keeping the lights on, firefighting and all that stuff.

[00:36:54] So how do you strike the right balance between speed, scale and sustainability when guiding organisations through complex digital transformations? It must be something you see a lot. And I appreciate it. It's probably a question we could spend an entire podcast on, but anything you can share around that? Absolutely. For sure. No, it is. It's a great question because, as you say, people are looking to leverage, even in the Canadian market. And I find, you know, Canadian customers a little bit. I don't know if this is also the case in the UK.

[00:37:23] They can be a little bit more conservative. They kind of want to let others fail fast, so to speak, and kind of learn the lessons along the way. I think that's been one of the keys actually to this success of CASC in Canada has been the fact that we're part of a global organisation. We have experience with our teams in Brazil and Mexico and in the US as well. So we really bring a lot of that experience to market. They really want to understand, where else have you done this?

[00:37:52] Where else have you delivered this particular solution? And that's really been great for us because we are able to find that global expert on any number of solutions that ServiceNow has. And as you know, they have their hands in a lot of different areas, so to speak, and from HR to they've just, as you might be aware now, the ServiceNow has a CRM solution. So it's really grown in a lot of different areas.

[00:38:16] So being able to bring experience and have them talk to our clients in other areas has been really helpful in terms of helping them understand where they are and how they can get value from that. So having a good roster of clients that you call on to be able to help put people's lines at ease is helpful. What we're also seeing a lot of, and more so now than any other time in my career, is proofs of concept. And it just makes absolute sense in this situation.

[00:38:44] Diving in with both feet can feel exciting, but really testing out and making sure that all of these complex integrations that you're wanting to make happen, et cetera. Starting with something very small that if it were not to work out, wouldn't have a massive impact on the rest of your business. I'm seeing more of that now than I have in the past, just because, as you said, a lot of these tools now, things that ServiceNow is doing are very mission critical to people's business. They're effectively running their businesses on it.

[00:39:14] So they can't afford to take the risk that something that they might try might not work out. So really, those are some of the areas where I'm really seeing a lot of emphasis is testing things as much as possible, talking to others who have taken the steps who might be a few steps ahead of them. Those are some of the areas because it is finding that balance. I want to leverage. I want that competitive advantage of having the latest and greatest technology, but I can't have it something that's going to hold me back or set me back in my world plan.

[00:39:45] And another big question we've got to look at, if we look, what, 12 months ahead with one eye on 2026 already, especially for yourselves at CAS Canada, what's on your radar in terms of opportunities, risks, shifts in the ServiceNow landscape? You must be monitoring this world so closely and all these different trends and reports that are surfacing on an almost daily basis. What's next for you? What are you looking at? What's your focus?

[00:40:15] Absolutely. Well, yeah, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, I'm really curious to understand the impact of this AI, these configuration tools that are coming along to help clients and obviously implementation partners like us to configure the ServiceNow product. I'm really, as I said, we have a number of folks within our organization right now that are looking at how those tools are going to change the way we operate.

[00:40:39] I mean, the reality is, is that these massive, you think about these massive 15, 18, $20 million SAP for HANA projects for organizations. They're just like us. They're going to be, we're all going to be massively impacted in the way that implementation services are delivered. So that's something that is definitely something that we're doing a lot of internal research and trying to understand the best we can in terms of, again, how do we use this to deliver

[00:41:08] more effectively in a more cost-effective way with less errors, less challenges, et cetera, along the way, less rework. So that's something that I'm very interested to see as we go towards 2026, how that's going to impact our market. And then, and then also just understanding kind of where things are going to go from a continued growth and consolidation within kind of the implementation and professional services business. I mean, as people are no doubt aware, and many of the people who listen to this podcast

[00:41:36] are aware, a lot of the venture capitalists have come in and acquired a lot of, of implementation partners. I think they've seen, maybe they've looked at the margins and they've, they've seen professional services, but I've even seen, I've even seen venture capital come in and take over all the vets in my neighborhood right now. So it seems like a lot of places, people are looking for opportunities to capitalize on services, businesses that are, that are profitable. And so to sort of see how that's going to end up playing out in terms of how many competitors,

[00:42:05] what, what the competitive landscape and the people that I'm going to be competing of against in this, the Canadian market, I, I anticipate there will be more, more and more consolidation as we go along. What I'm also seeing as well, and this could be of interest to also to your listeners is just what I'm seeing as well as, as time goes on to me, it's getting harder and harder to go out and hang a shingle and say, I want to be a ServiceNow implementation partner.

[00:42:30] We obviously are, are a proud Canadian business that started up in the last year and a half, but really if you were starting from scratch and you didn't have any references, you didn't have any, when you were just a couple of technical, an architect, a developer and a PM and a salesperson trying to get started in this business, ServiceNow, Salesforce, Microsoft, all of these these, these platforms and tools have gotten so large and so complicated that if you're

[00:43:00] going to do a decent job of wrapping your arms around everything that, that, you know, ServiceNow delivers to its clients, if you're going to be able to go to any client and say, we can help you virtually anywhere you want to go, that's going to be harder and harder to do because it's getting so complex. As I said before, you're going to need to have business process consultants. You're going to need to have all sorts of folks. So the old days of just, oh, it's me and my friend and we're in our basement starting off a new company. Those will still happen, but it's going to be much harder.

[00:43:29] I think you're going to see a lot of the big four and the larger global consulting firms continuing to dominate this market. That's a beautiful moment to finish on. So thank you so much for sharing your story and also offering a unique perspective on what it takes to rapidly scale a high growth tech services firm in Canada. And before I let you go, though, it's time to have a bit of fun. Earlier in our conversation, you mentioned both a book and a band with the Beatles there.

[00:43:58] So we have a Spotify playlist where I ask my guests to leave a song. I also have a Amazon wishlist where my guests can leave a book. All I'm going to ask you is what is that final gift that you'd like to leave everyone listening and why? Well, it's been a big year. I'm actually hearing my voice now. I'm getting a little emotional. It's been a big and exciting year. And there's a lot of points where it's obviously been very exciting, but it also at times has been nerve wracking.

[00:44:24] That's certainly something that I've learned along the way is anxiety and excitement are kind of two sides of the same coin sometimes. But what I'd like to leave your listeners with is my favorite song of all time, which is Here Comes the Sun by the Beatles. And as you can imagine, there were more than a few times along the way where that song kind of helped me get out of some more challenging moments in my year.

[00:44:49] So I hope that brings a little sunshine, so to speak, to everybody else and helps to motivate them as they go forward. What a great song. I absolutely love that. Timeless classic. I'll be adding that straight to an Amazon wishlist. It deserves to be there for so many different reasons. I'm a big music guy myself, so that is a perfect choice. And for anyone listening wanting to dive a little bit deeper into anything that we talked about today, we did cover a lot in what, about 30, 40 minutes.

[00:45:18] So where would you like them to check out more information or even contact you or your team? Where would you like to point them? Oh, the best place to reach out to me is typically via LinkedIn. On there all the time, a very important part of our day. We also have our website, which is caskinc.com. And be happy to engage with any number of people who are interested in learning a little bit more about our organization or how we can potentially work together.

[00:45:44] Well, I'll add links to everything to make it easy for people to find you. And as I said, we did cover a lot there. And it's my hope that we gave something for everybody, whether that be the unexpected challenges and wins of launching a tech consultancy in Canada or how AI and automation are already reshaping ServiceNow-driven transformations. And learning from some of those lessons that you've had there from building an elite consulting team in a competitive talent market.

[00:46:13] I hope people do check you out and ask you some questions as well. I'm sure there's going to be a few of those. But thank you for sharing your story today. Neil, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. So a big thank you to Jeff for sharing a behind the scenes look at what it takes to scale a tech consultancy from the ground up, while also staying true to your roots. From navigating Canada's shifting digital priorities to leveraging AI without losing the human touch.

[00:46:42] I think Jeff gave us a lot to think about when it comes to the future of tech services and the evolving role of implementation partners. Not to mention some great stories about the importance of energy and saying yes more often. But over to you. Have you faced similar challenges scaling in a competitive market? Are you exploring AI's potential in platforms like ServiceNow? Or are you still figuring out where to start? Let me know your thoughts.

[00:47:08] I want to hear your lessons from the front lines of transformation. Techblogwriteroutlook.com LinkedIn, X, Instagram, just at Neil C. Hughes. It's time for you to share your stories. I will wait patiently while preparing for another guest. But let me know and I'll get straight back to you.